Live data from Hacker News

The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

blog.jaibot.com

11–20 of 69 posts

Re: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

#11

Something the article misses is that when you become aware of an issue, you do become responsible. Now, we can't act on every problem so inaction has to be on the table. But: > Mr. Thornley improved on the status quo – but in the process he interacted the problem and was thus caught up in it. No. The proper response to the wage gap[1] is not to pay women slightly more but still less than the equivalently-qualified ma…

It's also interesting that it wouldn't even solve the "wage gap" that is often talked about.

At least in the comments, someone goes down this rabbit hole, points out that the generally talked about wage gap (IE the "women earn 83 cents for every dollar men earn" ones) is, at least as being published by BLS/etc an overall one, not an individual one.

IE they are calculating median annual earnings of all women working full time, year round, and then calculating median annual earnings of all men working full time, year round, and seeing what the gap is.

So in fact, even if you pay men and women equally (which 100% agree should be the base case) for the same job, that gap wouldn't get closed because of the effect of job choice, etc.

Equal pay is a necessary but not sufficient condition to close the overall wage gap because of this (in fact, you'd still end up with a wage gap that was quite large, IIRC)

Re: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

#12

This article seems like a major failure of both imagination and empathy. Paying homeless people $20 a day to be wifi hotspots or paying people's bills on the condition that they become vegan helps in the moment , but these solutions are actively harmful in the long term if practiced as a default response to the problems they ostensibly address. Such "solutions" calcify in people's minds, and provide a convenient excu…

"repulsive to the general public because regular people, on some level, understand that everyone has an unconditional right to the safety and dignity"

I want to point out a couple errors in your statement.

1. The correct verb to use is "feel", rather than "understand". "Understand" can only refer to an objective fact that can be verified, proven, etc.

2. While some "regular people" (including myself) share your views, it is not all of them, and not even an overwhelming majority of them. In fact, I suspect it's only a minority, perhaps a tiny minority of people worldwide who actually agree with you (and me). So perhaps a better way to say it, "repulsive to me and others who share my beliefs because we...".

These may seem like small things, but actually writing the way you do make your statements sound like a religious tract (kinda like "Human beings understand that God's will is absolute"). I doubt that was your intent.

Re: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

#13
The argument that we can profit from the poor by giving them a small amount of money that is better than the nothing they usually get, and still be criticized because it is not enough reminds me of the ultimatum game.

Here we have two players, the first player has a plan to win a a million dollars, but for the plan to work, the second player needs to cooperate, if he doesn't everything is lost. The plan is perfectly safe, legal, and requires almost no work on the second player part.

In order to ensure the second player cooperation, the first player suggests splitting the earnings.

In theory, the first player only needs to split $999999/$1. $1 is better than nothing for the second player, so if he was perfectly selfish and rational, he would accept the offer. In practice it is not how it works, the proposal is usually fair (close to 50/50), and proposals less than 70/30 are often refused, even though a refusal means no one gets to earn anything.

So it show that we are not completely rational and selfish here.

Re: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

#14
post #13

The argument that we can profit from the poor by giving them a small amount of money that is better than the nothing they usually get, and still be criticized because it is not enough reminds me of the ultimatum game. Here we have two players, the first player has a plan to win a a million dollars, but for the plan to work, the second player needs to cooperate, if he doesn't everything is lost. The plan is perfectly…

>>>So it show that we are not completely rational and selfish here.

Does it? Accepting $1 might be a good strategy if this game only ever comes up once and no one can learn from it, but that's not the world we live in. If all the "second players" in the world don't accept anything below 30%, guess what, we end up much better off in the long run.

Re: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

#15
post #13

The argument that we can profit from the poor by giving them a small amount of money that is better than the nothing they usually get, and still be criticized because it is not enough reminds me of the ultimatum game. Here we have two players, the first player has a plan to win a a million dollars, but for the plan to work, the second player needs to cooperate, if he doesn't everything is lost. The plan is perfectly…

There is also some game theory going on there. The second player is also offering the first an ultimatum. In theory, if the second player says they would only corporate for a 1/99 split, the second player should accept that deal (assuming the 1% is still greater then the effort that the first player needs to put in).

In essence, there is a range of splits that is mutually beneficial, and it is a negotiation to decide which of those splits to take. As anyone who regularly negotiates knows, a key asset in negotiations is the credible ability to walk away. If people have multiple negotiations, then the ones who are willing to let slightly profitable deals fall through will often do better in net because the deals they do make will be even more profitable then they would otherwise be.

Much of economics can be seen through this lenses. For instance, monopolies can be thought of as the monopoly holder playing an ultimatum game with all of the consumers. Since the monopoly holder has a much higher ability to walk away from a deal they are able to force the trade at a price point that allows them to capture more of the net benefit.

Re: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

#16

What this article really misses is that if you exploit someone at slight better conditions than they were previously being exploited, you are still exploiting them, and morally responsible for that.

That’s the exact conclusion it’s disputing, calling it logically incoherent because your actions never contributed to the condition but made them strictly better off.

Re: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

#17

What this article really misses is that if you exploit someone at slight better conditions than they were previously being exploited, you are still exploiting them, and morally responsible for that.

It doesn't "miss" that, it rejects it. And what does moral responsibility mean? If I toss $1 in a beggar's cup, am I now responsible to feed him for the rest of his life? More so than if I cross the street and avoid him?

Re: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

#18

This article seems like a major failure of both imagination and empathy. Paying homeless people $20 a day to be wifi hotspots or paying people's bills on the condition that they become vegan helps in the moment , but these solutions are actively harmful in the long term if practiced as a default response to the problems they ostensibly address. Such "solutions" calcify in people's minds, and provide a convenient excu…

You're making two claims here that I think are interesting:

1) PETA paying someone's water bills (or SXSW paying homeless folks) is harmful in the long term, because it makes society fixing the overall issue less likely.

2) That harm is greater then the harm of their water being cut off (or not having that $20).

To the first, I'd say we're clearly not solving these issues whether or not we let PETA pay water bills. To the second, I suspect having running water today matters to people a lot more than some theoretical fix in x years.

Re: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

#19

This article seems like a major failure of both imagination and empathy. Paying homeless people $20 a day to be wifi hotspots or paying people's bills on the condition that they become vegan helps in the moment , but these solutions are actively harmful in the long term if practiced as a default response to the problems they ostensibly address. Such "solutions" calcify in people's minds, and provide a convenient excu…

That's a lot of speculation and assertion confidently claimed as fact.

Re: The Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics (2015)

#20

This article seems like a major failure of both imagination and empathy. Paying homeless people $20 a day to be wifi hotspots or paying people's bills on the condition that they become vegan helps in the moment , but these solutions are actively harmful in the long term if practiced as a default response to the problems they ostensibly address. Such "solutions" calcify in people's minds, and provide a convenient excu…

Yah. Making the homeless jump through hoops is negative to the dignity of everyone involved-- both the homeless person and the people interacting with them to get wifi.

On the other hand, the experiment design that was mentioned: we need to do a lot more like this. Randomize some people jumping the waitlist and then compare them to people in the same position in the waitlist that you didn't let jump the line. That way we can objectively measure what programs produce the best outcomes and deserve the most resources.

Big Brothers Big Sisters was convincingly able to show the efficacy of their programs with a variant of this experiment design, which IMO puts them a whole lot ahead of most other charities.

Post reply on HN