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Stanford’s war on social life

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Re: Stanford’s war on social life

#91
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, these are all things that I personally watched happen and had happen to friends in fraternities. Not technically any Stanford ones, so I guess you got me there - maybe they were all squeaky clean. Google "hazing death" if you want to learn about the fun-time rituals of drinking, drugs, and abuse. Google "fraternity sexual assault" to learn why girls I knew avoided the "handsy house" -- careful, your comp…

> To be clear, these are all things that I personally watched happen and had happen to friends in fraternities. Not technically any Stanford ones, so I guess you got me there - maybe they were all squeaky clean. Not technically any Stanford ones? Can you elaborate on what you mean by "technically"? Because it sounds like those statements you wrote are not based on any experience whatsoever with the fraternities and o…

"technically not Stanford" meaning I have heard horror stories from 15+ fraternities at 5+ schools -- but not Stanford.

So hopefully you'll forgive me if I generalize. Especially when one of the most widely-storied campus sexual assault cases in recent years happened at the Stanford Kappa Alpha house [1] -- the first fraternity house mentioned in the linked article.

[1] https://archive.ph/hxcgw

Re: Stanford’s war on social life

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nature activities are "endemically white"? Is this a serious comment? Even if we buy into the ridiculous naturalistic fallacy here, it's completely ahistorical: our modern history is primarily the history of white countries colonizing and industrializing nonwhite countries and alienating them from nature in the process. Suburban white America is arguably even more alienated from nature than city dwellers, in its rede…

Leaving aside the inanity of zdragnar's broad-bush painting of "anti-racism," it's worth noting here that this is somewhat falling victim to some historical propaganda of other races being "inferior" - e.g. "we're bringing civilization to the savages." There were pretty substantial urban civilizations in Central America and around the Indian Ocean that Europeans (Portugal, first, I believe) waged war on early in the…

You're completely right, which is why I took pains to avoid the word "civilizing." Colonization created an industrial base in its victim countries not as an end in itself, but as a means towards wealth extraction.

Re: Stanford’s war on social life

#93

This highlights something I feel like most older people on Hackernews, and generally don't know about modern student life! the amount of university involvement in what's going on in everyone's personal lives has increased substantially from when you were in school, much to the adulation of a portion of the student population. Unis now focus on "student welfare", which really just means expanding the universities reac…

> 99.9% of these dumbass rules are made due to actuaries in insurance companies or lawyers trying to minimize university liability. I think you're vastly over-estimating the numbers being crunched and vastly over estimating the "well I don't like it and it could lead to some unspecified harm and it's hard to quantify the good that it brings in so we're going to reduce/control/ban it"

Sorry, may have been too vague on that point.

I do agree there is not likely to be some sort of mustache twirling excel crunching person in middle management who flips the "anti-party" switch. I do think that a lot of this stuff is the output of working groups who use data to tackle common issues you see in Unis though, generally with good intentions.

However there are certain times when this actually is the case.

For e.g. when it comes to Greek life you'll see many social/party related rules that are made specifically for/by their insurance providers. These often are things like you must keep a licensed bartender to serve drinks, everyone can only bring X amount that have to be checked in and served back them, every social event must be registered with the university etc.

As for minimizing liabilities, my university had many trainings you must go through if you're part of any student org. The trainings are, at least in my experiance, not useful and only serve as something the university can point to in the event of an issue and say "hey we tried". I'd assume it's standard practice for most colleges, and while there may be some level of true belief in the effectiveness of these trainings I really doubt it considering they mostly amounted to motivational speakers who charge obscene speaking fees.

This happened in dorms too, but is less extensive, and frankly more useful b/c it was student (RA) to student and not a speech.

Also see most COVID policy written related to a uni. Particularly in the beginning of the pandemic.

At my school, parents were forced to pickup their children from across the country in crowded dorms all at once. This was back when it was assumed covid had a huge death rate and was already spreading where we lived.

My assumption is this was done to minimize liability for the university, even at the expense of infecting anywhere these kids were going. I fail to see how this was medically the best move. There was no quarantine period, and no-one was given the ability to stay unless you had a valid reason. (This included greek life and other mixed university-managed + student org housing, which doubly makes no sense unless it was about liability, since they were entirely independent from university in terms of maintenance, access etc)

A bunch of orgs on my campus petitioned the university to stay, especially those with vulnerable family and we were universally told to leave or we'd be arrested for trespass.

Another was seeing that our university police department owned riot gear.

Sorry for ranting a bit, I do admit I have a chip on my shoulder about that.

Re: Stanford’s war on social life

#94

I thought Kappa Alpha got "un-housed" as part of the fallout for hosting the party where the Brock Turner assault took place. That kind of event would have led to a frat being dissolved on my campus in the 1990s. Obviously there are many other examples in this article, but that one doesn't seem to quite fit.

I also chased down a few others that had pretty solid justification: the band seems to have had a reputation of both hazing and trying to cover for or silence sexual assault accusations.

I'm not saying the article has no point to make, but I'm not sure Stanford is the hill to die on for this cause. When many of the examples the article gives fall apart on inspection it starts to look like Stanford had a lot of truly fucked up shit going on in a very systemic way.

Re: Stanford’s war on social life

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that the root cause is the financialization and rat-race-ification of everything. You gotta go to college to make a good living. You gotta go to a TOP college especially. You gotta work your ass off in high school to get in. And so everyone just is told their whole childhood to compete harder and harder in this race to the bottom and there's no more room for interesting experiences since a truly interest…

Is it possible this is a consequence of proportionally fewer economic opportunities (i.e. increasing income/wealth gap)? Maybe the combination of low hanging fruit having been picked, and automation and technology allowing for massive economies of scale inevitably lead to a “big getting bigger” scenario. And because the lower hanging fruit has been picked, the risk and hence barrier to entry is very high for non conv…

I think there's a really interesting question in there of "is it a cause, or an effect," that I honestly don't have a strong opinion on currently.

I would lean towards cause instead of effect, though.

So where you say, "low hanging fruit has been picked resulting in high barrier to entry," I say, "this zero-sum-game of maximizing academic profiles starting in preschool has resulted in higher barriers to entry because the less well-off you are, the harder it is to both know what to maximize and have the time to do it."

I see it as a "everyone's defecting in a prisoner's dilemma resulting in everyone having a worse time" game theory problem.

If you try to be "merit" based but don't have reliable ways of separating "merit" from "grinding" then you're gonna end up with a lot of grinders as people figure it out.

Re: Stanford’s war on social life

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a quiet but persistent thought pattern that outdoor / nature activities- hiking, camping, etc- are endemically white and that any attempt to organize around it without making overt, aggressive attempts to include minorities is a sign of white supremacy. This is the main thrust of the "anti-racist" movement. If you aren't talking about being inclusive in every aspect of any social interaction you partake in,…

Nature activities are "endemically white"? Is this a serious comment? Even if we buy into the ridiculous naturalistic fallacy here, it's completely ahistorical: our modern history is primarily the history of white countries colonizing and industrializing nonwhite countries and alienating them from nature in the process. Suburban white America is arguably even more alienated from nature than city dwellers, in its rede…

> Nature activities are "endemically white"? Is this a serious comment?

Yes, people seriously say that. Here's a few examples from a quick search:

From 2016: https://www.sierraclub.org/outdoors/2016/12/unbearable-white...

From 2017: https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/opinion/outdoor-indust...

From 2021: https://www.healthline.com/health/outdoor-health/hiking-is-b...

Re: Stanford’s war on social life

#97

“Stanford's new social order offers a peek into the bureaucrat's vision for America. It is a world without risk, genuine difference, or the kind of group connection that makes teenage boys want to rent bulldozers and build islands. It is a world largely without unencumbered joy; without the kind of cultural specificity that makes college, or the rest of life, particularly interesting.” This is true at MIT as well. Ca…

> This is true at MIT as well. Can’t imagine the hacks of old being allowed. Indeed, at a time the admissions process was advertising MIT's hacks of old, and they were featured in the museum, the administrators changed both the makeup and mission of the campus police. From experienced and wise older officers who were looking for a calmer post before retirement into younger aggressive sorts, and they started arresting…

The administrators have gotten insufferable. In 2019 I co-ran an event for student-alumni bonding that invites alumni from all years, mostly families, to come back to the school and share a large historic feast with students. The administrators did not like that this would include alumni from a dormitory that was closed for 'policy violations' (note: most of these alumni are perfectly functional parents and adults! they have no interest in debauchery with undergrads) so they tried everything to sabotage this student-alumni gathering.

At one point they claimed, verbatim, that 'preparing and serving potato salad presents a liability to the Institute' when discussing the tradition of students and alumni preparing side dishes together. Potato salad liability... we built a wooden rollercoaster in the courtyard the previous year!

Re: Stanford’s war on social life

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a quiet but persistent thought pattern that outdoor / nature activities- hiking, camping, etc- are endemically white and that any attempt to organize around it without making overt, aggressive attempts to include minorities is a sign of white supremacy. This is the main thrust of the "anti-racist" movement. If you aren't talking about being inclusive in every aspect of any social interaction you partake in,…

Nature activities are "endemically white"? Is this a serious comment? Even if we buy into the ridiculous naturalistic fallacy here, it's completely ahistorical: our modern history is primarily the history of white countries colonizing and industrializing nonwhite countries and alienating them from nature in the process. Suburban white America is arguably even more alienated from nature than city dwellers, in its rede…

[deleted]

Re: Stanford’s war on social life

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a quiet but persistent thought pattern that outdoor / nature activities- hiking, camping, etc- are endemically white and that any attempt to organize around it without making overt, aggressive attempts to include minorities is a sign of white supremacy. This is the main thrust of the "anti-racist" movement. If you aren't talking about being inclusive in every aspect of any social interaction you partake in,…

Nature activities are "endemically white"? Is this a serious comment? Even if we buy into the ridiculous naturalistic fallacy here, it's completely ahistorical: our modern history is primarily the history of white countries colonizing and industrializing nonwhite countries and alienating them from nature in the process. Suburban white America is arguably even more alienated from nature than city dwellers, in its rede…

> Nature activities are "endemically white"? Is this a serious comment?

The Unbearable Whiteness of Hiking and How to Solve It - https://www.sierraclub.org/outdoors/2016/12/unbearable-white...

Why Are Our Parks So White? - https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/opinion/sunday/diversify-...

The unbearable whiteness of cycling - https://theconversation.com/the-unbearable-whiteness-of-cycl...

Five ways to make the climate movement less white - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/21/five-ways-to...

(but also Why climate action is the antithesis of white supremacy - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/19/why-yo...)

Why are so many white men trying to save the planet without the rest of us? - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/08/white-...

Re: Stanford’s war on social life

#100
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be clear, these are all things that I personally watched happen and had happen to friends in fraternities. Not technically any Stanford ones, so I guess you got me there - maybe they were all squeaky clean. Not technically any Stanford ones? Can you elaborate on what you mean by "technically"? Because it sounds like those statements you wrote are not based on any experience whatsoever with the fraternities and o…

"technically not Stanford" meaning I have heard horror stories from 15+ fraternities at 5+ schools -- but not Stanford. So hopefully you'll forgive me if I generalize. Especially when one of the most widely-storied campus sexual assault cases in recent years happened at the Stanford Kappa Alpha house [1] -- the first fraternity house mentioned in the linked article. [1] https://archive.ph/hxcgw

Please read your sources, Turner did not carry out the assault at KA. He and the victims met at a part at KA and Turner assaulted after leaving the fraternity. The article writes that it was "just outside" but it was out of sight of the fraternity house, some ways away.
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