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Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

kalzumeus.com

231–240 of 274 posts

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#231

Thanks for this manifesto patio11! I read it a couple of times and thought how I could apply it to my career. There are 2 parts in it that I have difficulties with, and I'd appreciate clarifications: ----------------------------- "In the real world, picking up a new language takes a few weeks of effort and after 6 to 12 months nobody will ever notice you haven’t been doing that one for your entire career." How can yo…

I'm not patio11, but I'll try to answer them from my perspective:

"I was taught that the worth of programmers is exponential to their talents. Say that if you're at the 99% percentile of Language X developers, there are (say) about 1,000 people like you in the world. If you're in the 99.99% percentlie, there are now only 10 people like you worldwide. Wouldn't that result in a much bigger price that you could put on your services?"

This sounds good in theory, however, there are only so many businesses that actually are in need of 'a programmer in the 99th percentile of language X'. You can find a lot more that are looking for 'a programmer that helps me make more money'.

The problem is that there's a big gap between 'being sufficient in language X' and being in the 99th percentile. If you are in the 90th percentile of language X developers, there's not much people looking for you (they need the 99th percentile guy).

"For example, let's say that you're a CEO, and you have hired an expensive programmer to write a script that periodically checks that your backups are valid. That would qualify for a "Cost Center", right? And everyone would agree that this is a wise investment.

So what am I supposed to do if I'm hired to do this kind of job? Decline it because it's a Cost Cetner?" As far as I understood the article, the point would be to look how you could communicate about the job so it would be attached to the Profit Center. Let me give it a (probably bad) try: _"I make sure company X saves 10K on manual backup verifications, which are in place to make sure they don't lose millions when a backup is required."_

A normal CEO would probably only hire you for $AMOUNT_OF_MONEY if he believes it would save him >$AMOUNT_OF_MONEY on e.g. manual labor.

"You also suggest to "engineer your transfer [from Cost Center to Profit Center] after joining the company". Wouldn't that be kinda douche-y? I mean, I'd be pretty pissed if I hired a guy to do Job X and then he was trying to engineer his way into Job Y because that's where the money is." The trick in 'transferring' to the Profit Center is part communication about your job (to your manager, CEO, clients, etc.) and the other part asking the question _"How does what I'm doing right now makes my boss money?"_ because if it doesn't make him money some how, you're probably messing around.

That said, it's really hard to connect 'bugfixes on other people's applications' to the Profit Center.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#232
post #5

Fantastic post. I'd also recommend any "programmers" to invest a couple years in a systems integration engineering role as well. It's generally a great place for picking up some skills many programmers / engineers lack: * Communicating with internal and external customers * Understand systems from a broader (higher level) perspective * Ability to translate wants and needs to technical requirements and specifications…

I'd also add - meet all the influential people in different teams. From my limited experience, even if you're on a low position you suddenly start talking to team leaders and people who they assign to talk to you (usually the ones who have a clue). Great start for networking.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#233
I feel like this article takes a very pessimistic view. To be great or have success in any field, doing anything, you are going to be up against "bad odds". If the odds of success were in everyone's favor then it wouldn't be "success" anymore. If anything this is a very discouraging article for people who may be aspiring to accomplish something great which I feel like the HN community is all about.

Perhaps I've misunderstood the authors intentions? The parts about young people in start-ups, and how it becomes a downward spiral if you aren't in the lucky 10% is such a negative view it hurts. Specifically the "odds" of succeeding and the relative unimportance of the connections you make during that time because [paraphrased] "most of the connections you make in the start-up world are with other start-ups who are likely to fail as well". This is just such a losing mindset to have. If the only thing you are concerned about is not failing then you have no chance to do anything of importance. The choice is yours.

I apologize if I've missed the point here as I know there were a lot of other parts in the article about adding value to your career and understanding how corporate structures work. I do believe those are great things to understand but the tone of the whole thing really struck a nerve.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#234
post #190
post #140

Strive to help people. It is the right people to do A heads-up for patio11: There is lots of good stuff here, but it needs to be copyedited. There are a bunch of little errors like the one quoted above.

This could be another little error, or it could be intentional. It's hard to tell: It is

Seems intentional. I find it slightly funny - about the same level as d100. You need to be min. lvl5 nerd to get it.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#235
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad when academia is demoted to a "hobby." For me at least, money is less important than having discretion to work on novel projects. Also, I never called anyone arrogant, but rather the article itself. Big difference. I don't know Patrick personally, so I wouldn't label him as such.

money is less important than having discretion to work on novel projects Sure. Like I said: talk to me in ten years. Maybe you'll still believe that academia gives you freedom to work on whatever you like. All my academic friends do. They are devoted and talented enough that they can soar blithely above the fact that: A) In academia, you work where the research grants are. You are free to start a research project in…

Agree with m0th87.

Right after my undergrad, I worked in the industry for 5 years and then went to Grad school. Since completing the grad school it has been 10 more years in the industry.

My industry experience has been great so far and I love what I do. I consider my Grad school experience as an enlightening and enjoyable period of my life.

Not everyone has a bad grad school experience. No need to beat down the academic experience. A lot of people gain from it. A career in academia is not the same as being a student.

It seems to me that both are being looked down upon here.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still an undergrad so it'd be completely logical to just ignore my opinion, but..... you went from doing research to supporting PHP apps? Did you initially want to go into more researchy things and then decide "this is boring, I want to just support PHP apps instead", or did you go into research knowing you'd eventually want to do something like supporting PHP apps? I'm unsure about my own career but going to gra…

Did you initially want to go into more researchy things and then decide "this is boring, I want to just support PHP apps instead"? Yeah, stripped of all the romance and intrigue, that's basically it. Things I would tell someone in your position: Don't underestimate the wonderful things that money can do for your life. Don't underestimate the joy of being given money by grateful customers because you have made them in…

To the list of articles to read before heading for grad school, I'd add Philip Greenspun's http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science

I have a summary of it here: http://bfrsblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-every-prospective-...

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#237
90% of programming jobs are in creating Line of Business software: Most software is not sold in boxes, available on the Internet, or downloaded from the App Store. Most software is boring one-off applications in corporations, under-girding every imaginable facet of the global economy. It tracks expenses, it optimizes shipping costs, it assists the accounting department in preparing projections, it helps design new widgets, it prices insurance policies, it flags orders for manual review by the fraud department, etc etc. Software solves business problems. Software often solves business problems despite being soul-crushingly boring and of minimal technical complexity.

Wasn't this precisely the insight of the founders of Infosys in the late 80s? Together, the Indian outsourcing giants, Infosys, TCS and Wipro have amassed huge armies of "programmers" to meet these needs. I stay away from CRUD stuff, because 1. I don't expect to be very successful competing with armies. 2. I don't like being a part of a huge army.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#238
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of programmers tends not be linear with cost though. Paying an extra 25-50% for decent ones gets you at least a 2x improvement, possibly more if they can rewrite large chunks of your corporate code to improve it.

That's precisely my point. The question in the businessman's head is "are you one of the decent ones? are we getting our money's worth?"

Yes, and it should be, but the answer, unfortunately, is that they typically have no idea who is a good programmer and who isn't, so they only end up hiring cheap programmers.

In other words - yes, they are clueless.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#239
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineering is a older profession that Medicine. Remember it was wheel and before that tools to invent the wheel that got invented. Software is a sub branch of engineering. Like veterinary doctors. In fact man kind had taken huge leaps in engineering before they took in medicine(Stuff like Pyramids of Giza etc). Doctors and Lawyers have a nature of work which if done badly or of subjectively low quality a persons qua…

That's why "Engineer" actually is a high-status profession. "Programmer", not so much. There is a reason many programmers have tend to refer to themselves as Software Engineers.

This is so true.

I went with my co-worker to talk with a client a few weeks ago. Even though we do the exact same thing, we introduced ourselves differently.

I said I was a programmer, and the response was "oh, that's nice"

He said he was an Engineer, and the response was "Oh, that's so impressive"

Also the fact that here in Japan the average salary for "Software Engineer" is almost twice that for "Programmer" and you can see why you would want to shy away from that nomenclature.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#240
post #115

> If you really like the atmosphere at universities, that is cool. Put a backpack on and you can walk into any building at any university in the United States any time you want. Backpacks are a lot cheaper than working in academia. You can lead the life of the mind in industry, too — and enjoy less politics and better pay. You can even get published in journals, if that floats your boat. (After you’ve escaped the min…

How long have you been out of grad school? If you are still in grad school... Write us back in ten years and tell us how academia is coming along. Meanwhile, carpe diem . If you're out of grad school, tell us how much more awesome your career is than those of your relatively-untrained peers. More money? More respect? More challenges? What? I went to grad school, and then I did a postdoc, and these things were indeed…

... And am, gosh, approximately ten years behind my peers career-wise. Oh, those expensive hobbies!

That is the hardest part to stomach. I've also wasted the better part of a decade, pursuing what seems to now be "pie in the sky". Guys who got GPAs way behind me, are now way ahead of me.

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