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Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

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Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#41

Post by cageface »

A generation of hackers may have started with BASIC on Apple IIs, but getting a C compiler on a modern Mac is a 4GB XCode download.

A hefty download, perhaps, but free and once it's installed you have a good, modern, IDE with extensive documentation and perhaps the richest and most mature UI toolkit there is to play with. Getting something into the app store for sale may require crossing more speed bumps than necessary but if you want to learn systems or UI hacking it's far easier on a Mac now than it was on an Apple II.

Ubuntu may have taken this simplification strategy too far but catering primarily to the power user and developer is what earned Linux its minuscule market share in the first place.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#42

Post by frou_dh »

nsomaru wrote: post #37
jsz0 wrote: post #6

What percentage of users are developers? 5 percent? Lower? It's unwise to cater the entire OS to the needs of such a small minority especially when they are the best suited to change the environment to meet their needs. Complaining about needing to download Xcode is a perfect example of why it is wrong. If it's bundled into the OS you're wasting 4GB of space on tens of millions of machines to save the 5% a 4GB downlo…

I think the point was that it should not be a 4GB download to get a C-compiler. Your point makes sense if you accept a 4GB download just for a compiler. There are many Linux distro's that come with a C-compiler which are less than 4GB in total size.

What's wrong with this at 69MB?

http://llvm.org/releases/2.9/clang+llvm-2.9-x86_64-apple-dar...

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#43

Post by chubs »

scott_s wrote: post #23
trimbo wrote: post #13

A generation of hackers may have started with BASIC on Apple IIs, but getting a C compiler on a modern Mac is a 4GB XCode download The size of Xcode annoys me too, since I never use it. So I've been using this GCC install on my Mac: https://github.com/kennethreitz/osx-gcc-installer Couple hundred megabytes. It's still a lot larger than Orca/C was on my Apple IIgs (1 or 2 3.5" floppies?), but then again, compilers com…

Does it bother you for rational or irrational reasons? It bothers me for irrational reasons - it feels like it's too much, but really, I'm using about 65 GB of a 500 GB disk. So I tell myself to ignore that feeling and just install Xcode because it's the most efficient means of getting developer tools on my Mac.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the latest xcode is only about 1.5GB these days... they really did trim it down with 4.2

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#44

Post by ticks »

pork wrote: post #32
Rusky wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that Unity doesn't have much in the way of deviation from the standard configuration. They're not just changing defaults, they're removing everything else. This is a problem not for people who are already developers, because they will just install something else and move on, but for new users who won't have anything to discover. The article said "In fact I think Linux has a tendency to encourage averag…

The vast vast majority of people want to click on the Firefox icon and go to Facebook. People have lives that are busy, and the computer is a tool to get a job done. How many people "explore" the engine of their cars? Not many.

Yep. Ubuntu's obviously aiming their main product at the mainstream these days, and developers aren't in that mainstream.

That said, Unity might deter the most enthusiastic newbies, the sort that go on to inhabit support forums and help others.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#45

Post by jrockway »

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #40
jrockway wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps true, perhaps not. Some people don't want to invest time and energy to save time and energy later. Others do. A good Linux desktop should be able to cater to both types of user.

"Some people don't want to invest time and energy to save time and energy later." I believe the phrasing you were looking for is "the vast majority". Apple concentrates on providing a good experience for that vast majority. Everyone else can use OS X's CLI or tools like Automator, AppleScript, Xcode, Dashcode and MacRuby (all for free, albeit not all of it is 'free software').

That's simply not true. People pay thousands of dollars to attend Excel classes which show them all the little 99.99%-of-people-will-never-need-this-feature features, and they then use these features to be more productive in their work. If they were programmers, they wouldn't need those features, because they are simple enough to implement. But they're somewhere between programmers and users: they can't program, but they can learn a lot about how to use software. To make those users productive, you have to give them a lot of features.

Yes, the average person that visits YouTube and Facebook doesn't need a featureful desktop. But many people want to use their $2000 computer for more than that.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#46

Post by seabee »

jasonkostempski wrote: post #15
div wrote: post #2

I don't really understand what the author is trying to say. Granted, it's been a while since I used Ubuntu, but as a developer I mainly live in my editor and terminal. Anything I ever wanted is just an apt-get away and is mostly installed in a sensible way. Ubuntu simplifying desktop features and changing defaults to be easier for users like my mom sounds like a great thing to happen to Linux. That stuff is mostly or…

I agree that they should come up with a nice default user friendly setup but they MUST also allow the user to toggle on/off the bits of fluff they want or don't want and they shouldn't have to search Google to figure out how. Also, they have to do fancy animations right, if they're consistently choppy they are no longer a positive feature. My machine runs Windows 7 with all the fluff smoothly, they need to hit that p…

What are your specs like? I've used it on my netbook and a cheap 2006 Dell laptop (no animations) and a dual-core Atom board (animations) and everything had been smooth and quick. I wonder if the problem is driver support.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#47

Post by dorian-graph »

shasta wrote: post #39
sofuture wrote: post #5

I think Ubuntu should zag where Apple zags. I think they're doing it right. They're in a unique position to take an Apple-like path. I, for one, applaud what they're doing, as much as it terrifies all the half-power-users (I don't mean that as a slight, I do think it's a little silly to get upset about Ubuntu's default WM and claim to 'understand UNIX').

Exactly. If they get close to apple quality, they easily win on price.

For the operating system, yeah, but what about hardware?

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#48

Post by nkassis »

pork wrote: post #32
Rusky wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that Unity doesn't have much in the way of deviation from the standard configuration. They're not just changing defaults, they're removing everything else. This is a problem not for people who are already developers, because they will just install something else and move on, but for new users who won't have anything to discover. The article said "In fact I think Linux has a tendency to encourage averag…

The vast vast majority of people want to click on the Firefox icon and go to Facebook. People have lives that are busy, and the computer is a tool to get a job done. How many people "explore" the engine of their cars? Not many.

What about something as simple as changing you screensaver? My few years working as a sysadmin in a maintenance department at a University (read low tech knowledge) tells me people who care if they couldn't change something as simple as that yet you can't do that in Ubuntu 11.10. Changing fonts is another thing that's pretty annoying in this release but not as big a miss as the screen saver to most people. I hit those two things in the first few minutes of using the new release.

They are removing so many simple things like that pretty much everyone expects to be there that it's becoming ridiculous. The fact that the option to change some config exists does not in anyway prevent someone from clicking on the firefox icon and going to Facebook. (and I really hate the attitude that most assume people just want to go to facebook. The fact is most people do a whole lot more with their machine than most simplists are assuming with no data to back it up.)

I'm all for sane defaults but don't remove every configuration knob.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#49

Post by aufreak3 »

div wrote: post #2

I don't really understand what the author is trying to say. Granted, it's been a while since I used Ubuntu, but as a developer I mainly live in my editor and terminal. Anything I ever wanted is just an apt-get away and is mostly installed in a sensible way. Ubuntu simplifying desktop features and changing defaults to be easier for users like my mom sounds like a great thing to happen to Linux. That stuff is mostly or…

I don't know whether you used "users like my mom" just as a manner of speech, but in my case that is literally true - my mom does use Ubuntu and I quite appreciate the simplification of Ubuntu's interface that's happened over time which has made it possible for my mom to use it.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#50

Post by ashishgandhi »

> Given the growing lockdown of Apple’s systems

I see that kind of stuff said from time to time. But I don't quite understand. How is it growing?

And people talk about it (App Store) as if it's terribly evil of Apple but it's okay when it gets done on say a Xbox.

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