We all know that they were weak... the question is if they will be held accountable, somehow.
Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed
121–130 of 247 posts
Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
19 cops (in the hallway alone; more outside!) with rifles, armor, and complete control of the scene against one shooter is not a "kamikaze mission". What's the point of militarizing the police if they can't handle 19-on-1 situations?
Having a large number of police doesn't decrease the risk to the first person to jump through the door. And most police body armor is only effective against handgun rounds, across part of the body. Police militarization helps the police protect themselves when a situation gets out of control. I don't think there's much evidence to show that it ever helps police protect others. Although, there's a lot of reasons why p…
Don't soldiers have to undertake such dangerous actions? What's the point of militarizing all of these police departments with actual War on Terror surplus if they're not going to make use of it? So that weaponry can be misused in disproportionate responses in less dangerous situations?
Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is just unreasonable. Humans have a natural desire to preserve their own lives. First responders aren't any different. The idea that first responders are superheros is a fallacious trope. The vast majority of police never use their gun over their entire career.
Putting themselves in harms way is the deal. It’s why they get to retire over a decade earlier than the rest of us with a nice pension. It’s why they get qualified immunity for a whole bunch of actions. They aren’t holding up their side of the deal here.
Well said. In addition to what you've listed, it's also why we give them a monopoly on the use of force. The belief that they will protect is why we don't have vigilantes and mercenaries roaming the streets (for the most part). These cops were worse than useless. If they weren't present, there's no way the parents and the rest of the community would have let the shooter stay in that school with their children for so long.
Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed
#124I think the 'weakness' of their response is plainly obvious. If criminals can find advantages in this footage, its an opportunity to overhaul training programs and response plans. The training and response was woefully inadequate for this crisis, after all. There should be no reasonable reality in which the release of this footage is suppressed. This is an undeniable tragedy, battening down the hatches and obstinatel…
They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. This is extremely at odds with how the police want to be perceived , and managing that contradiction is certainly their biggest concern right now. From that perspective it's easy to un…
Charging in against someone with an AR-15 and some cover is suicide.
It's hard to fault the cops on this one. The 2012 Florida nightclub shooting was a roughly comparable situation - barricaded shooter, substantial firepower, hostage situation.[1] It took three hours to stop that guy, and the cops had to punch a hole in a wall with explosives and an armored vehicle.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting
Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you're not willing to put your life at risk, you should not be a first responder. Plain and simple.
Calculated risks, yes, like going in to the same building as an active shooter. They're not going to jump in front of a bullet to protect anyone else, though. The primary responsibility of any first responder -- police, fire, or EMS -- is to preserve their own lives.
>They're not going to jump in front of a bullet to protect anyone else, though. The primary responsibility of any first responder -- police, fire, or EMS -- is to preserve their own lives.
And this is where, circumstantially, you and I seem to have a fundamentally different viewpoint. We'll just keep going in circles.
Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
If a soldier goes AWOL because they're "scared" of fighting or consistently straight up neglects to do their job, I'm sure "natural self preservation" will be a stunning and effective defense at the court martial regardless if they're ina combat role or not.
It's almost as if civilians (read: police) and soldiers are trained, equipped, and deployed to different environments, with different rules.
And yet, today's police departments are often as militarized as soldiers. Plenty of HN stories about the phenomenon over the past decade
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most people won't willingly die at work for any amount of money or accountability, and I don't blame them. These kinds of situations are outrageous because people want to believe in superheros, but they don't exist.
When a group sees themselves superheroes, are treated like superheroes, put superhero slogans on their vehicles, are given weapons and armor and hazard pay based on their imminent superhero behavior, only to run and cower at the first sign of danger... Perhaps it's not the rest of us who are the problem.
Perhaps not the superhero we want, but the superhero we deserve?
Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
They maintained control with minimal personal risk to themselves. From a "policing realism" perspective that's exactly what police do. Preventing or ending any sort of crime or violence is optional at that point, and they opted not to. This is extremely at odds with how the police want to be perceived , and managing that contradiction is certainly their biggest concern right now. From that perspective it's easy to un…
Quoted post unavailable.
I frankly don’t think deserves to be flagged.
Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you don't want to find yourself in harm's way, don't become a police officer. Legally required or not, they knew the risks when they signed up, they knew what they were trained to do, and then they... didn't.
This is just unreasonable. Humans have a natural desire to preserve their own lives. First responders aren't any different. The idea that first responders are superheros is a fallacious trope. The vast majority of police never use their gun over their entire career.
There are many, many stories of individuals putting themselves in danger and in cases dying to protect others. Just the one that came to mind while reading about this sad story, done by a bunch of teens saving their fellow school members.
https://westdene1985.co.za/reports/the-survivors/
"
>>Koen, Petrus Lucas received the Wolraad Woltemade award posthumously. The 17-year-old drowned after rescuing his cousin and five fellow school pupils.
>>Du Toit, Daniel Sarel, aged 14, dived back into the water three times and saved three lives.
>>Mahner, Alfred who drove to the site, jumped into the water and helped several children to safety and assisted the fire brigade to attach cables to the bus.
>>Opperman, Gotlieb Rudolf, aged 15, was rescued in an unconscious condition from the bus after jumping back into the water three times to rescue children.
"
Re: Texas police want uvalde bodycam footage suppressed
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Putting themselves in harms way is the deal. It’s why they get to retire over a decade earlier than the rest of us with a nice pension. It’s why they get qualified immunity for a whole bunch of actions. They aren’t holding up their side of the deal here.
Yes, it's expected that first responders may do things that are generally dangerous but they're not on kamikaze missions, it's completely normal for them to back out when they believe their own life is in danger. This is not any different for any first responder. Firefighters will run right back out of your house if they think it's required to save their own lives.
Saving a house is not the same thing as saving children.
People risk or sacrifice themselves to save others with some frequency. Just a week before Ulvade, Dr. John Chang gave his life to tackle the shooter at his church in Orange County. Bravery exists. The belief in bravery is why we give special privileges to law enforcement. If we knew that police would never put themselves in harm's way to save children, we would never tolerate law enforcement as it currently exists.