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Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

talesoftimesforgotten.com

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Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#51
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very reasonable. But there was a slow collapse of the economy that is an intermediate cause in the chain of events that is central to the fall. You can speculate what caused that collapse, that in turn caused the fall and there are also many causes to consider, but again, there is one intermediate cause that is Christianism. The religion altered several aspects of the economy: slavery, commerce and lending. No…

If you blame Christianity, what about all of Constantine's other major changes? Was it the Tetrarchy? The formation of Constantinople? The restructuring of the government or military? The introduction of a new currency? All monumental changes that had about as much of an effect as the change of religious policy. I'm no fan of Christianity, but the claim that it was central to the fall always comes off as somewhat laz…

If you blame Christianity, what about all of Constantine's other major changes?

It's the Economy, Steve. In particular, if you discourage commerce, you're playing with fire in an empire with such an extension.

I'm no fan of Christianity, but the claim that it was central to the fall always comes off as somewhat lazy.

I thought I'd added enough nuance. The three aspects I mentioned are not trivial and can be connected directly. In fact, it's not something that just occured to me, there's abundant literature on them and are considered most probable causes by a lot of scolars.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#52

> Take Caligula as an example. We all know him as the mad emperor who supposedly once declared war on Neptune, then ordered his soldiers to attack the sea and take seashells as booty. The problem is that this story and the others like it all come from extremely late, hostile sources such as the biography Life of Caligula by Gaius Suetonius Tranquilus (lived c. 69 – after c. 122 AD) and Roman History by Kassios Dion (…

Basically when an emperor died he was either transformed into a god or demonized depending on which was more politically convenient to his successor. The truth seemed more like the emperors were quite similar in their cruelty and competence compared to the exaggerations of the surviving propaganda about them.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#53

This article argues against the fall of the roman empire being caused by severe lead poisoning. I would argue that it was more likely caused by widespread minor lead poisoning. If everyone is more forgetful and learns slower, then that isn't something that will be written in history books - the people themselves will just consider that 'normal'. Yet an empire of forgetful and slow-learning people won't be efficient.…

The sad thing is that this point of view is just not accepted to be discussed e.g. in case of (covid) vaccines or other large scale innovations. I'm not a fan of intelligence measuring the potential of a society but just to give an idea of the non-linearities that can be in play here: A reduction of just 3 IQ points on average leads to a 10 fold decrease in people of IQs around 140.

I'll bite, what the heck do COVID vaccines have to do with it?

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#54

"One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs."

Interestingly, at some point “N” began being used for zero, though apparently only some centuries after the fall: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numerals#Zero

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#55

This article argues against the fall of the roman empire being caused by severe lead poisoning. I would argue that it was more likely caused by widespread minor lead poisoning. If everyone is more forgetful and learns slower, then that isn't something that will be written in history books - the people themselves will just consider that 'normal'. Yet an empire of forgetful and slow-learning people won't be efficient.…

This sounds a bit familiar...

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#56

I was surprised how nice their homes were. Had nicer villas than most people's homes.

While not a proper historian I find Dan Carlin's observations very interesting, especially him comparing how, historically speaking, the middle class of their period had a lifestyle quite envious to our own, more akin to how we imagine the "idle rich" today (servants for all menial tasks, expansive homes, lackadaisical lifestyles and high quality education for personal pursuits). Underlaid of course by the same conce…

Historically the middle class in the past is the modern rich of today. It consisted of the bourgeoisie and the well educated elite who still had to work for their living (i.e. business owners, lawyers etc.) it wasn’t much more than a few percent pf the total population. Prior to the 20th century describing any person earning an ‘average’ income as middle class wouldn’t make much sense.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#57
post #19

What does the “Fall of Rome” actually mean? It’s not like everyone died or disappeared. They just stopped being ruled by a particular government.

We can speak of the "Fall of Detroit" even though Detroit continues to exist and hasn't disappeared, but it is certainly no longer in its heyday.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#58
post #19

What does the “Fall of Rome” actually mean? It’s not like everyone died or disappeared. They just stopped being ruled by a particular government.

A lot of people died - starved or got killed by disease, pillagers or such like. The population of Italy and Greece post the Empire was probably only half of what it was during the Roman times. But even beyond that, the “fall” of Rome (the city) meant that its one million former inhabitants now largely became rural subsistence farmers rather than artisans/craftsmen/smiths/teachers in a city with theatres, race tracks…

Most of this occurred close 100 hundreds years later after the fall of Rome when the Eastern Roman Empire tried to reconquer Italy the inhabitants of which had really noticed that the empire had fallen in 476. And anyway the population of Rome hadn’t been close to a million for hundreds of years, it had been declining for centuries.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#59

> Take Caligula as an example. We all know him as the mad emperor who supposedly once declared war on Neptune, then ordered his soldiers to attack the sea and take seashells as booty. The problem is that this story and the others like it all come from extremely late, hostile sources such as the biography Life of Caligula by Gaius Suetonius Tranquilus (lived c. 69 – after c. 122 AD) and Roman History by Kassios Dion (…

That's an interesting take -- and observing how some ultra-wealthy people today behave who aren't even emperors, just really rich -- seems plausible.

The "make my horse a senator" has always seemed to be a clear insult to the Senate and not actually thinking the horse should serve.

It's like voting in a cat as mayor, it's saying the job is so pointless an animal could do it.

Re: Lead poisoning probably did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire

#60
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very reasonable. But there was a slow collapse of the economy that is an intermediate cause in the chain of events that is central to the fall. You can speculate what caused that collapse, that in turn caused the fall and there are also many causes to consider, but again, there is one intermediate cause that is Christianism. The religion altered several aspects of the economy: slavery, commerce and lending. No…

The eastern half of the empire was just as Christian and didn’t collapse for another thousand years, so you can’t really point to Christianity as the cause. I don’t know why people obsess over finding a cause for the fall of Rome when it was one of the world’s longest lasting empires. We should be more interested in how it endured for over a millennia (nearly two thousand years if you count the Republic) whereas most…

The eastern half of the empire was just as Christian and didn’t collapse for another thousand years

The division of the empire itself was a consequence of the commerce collapsing. The fall of Rome is another one.

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