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The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

thehustle.co

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Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#81
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That he was paid is not enough reason to invalidate his testimony. Everyone in court that day, the lawyers, the judge, you, were paid. Why not him? If he indeed has expertise that would win his party's case, what exactly is wrong with getting paid, even paid handsomely, for his being there? This seems a lawyerly sort of ad hominem to discount expert testimony without directly challenging the evidence.

That's deeply naive. Incentives matter to humans. A lot in fact. Ask any lawyer that has hired expert witnesses. Over there entire career, ask them how many times the expert witness they hired did not come to conclusions supporting the side they were hired by. Even amongst lawyers that have hired 100's of experts, that number is usually zero. In theory, an expert should be using their expertise to assess the situatio…

>Over there entire career, ask them how many times the expert witness they hired did not come to conclusions supporting the side they were hired by. Even amongst lawyers that have hired 100's of experts, that number is usually zero.

I don't know where you're getting this from, but at least among forensic psychiatrists (and the forensic psychologists I've worked with), this is wildly inaccurate.

It's totally routine and unremarkable that I (or the dozens of colleagues I've talked to at length) have an opinion that doesn't support the side by which I was retained.

Edit: Not sure why this is being downvoted; only hoping to clear up misinformation/misperception. Sure, there are hired guns, but in my experience, they are actually pretty rare. Based on the lawyers I have interacted with to give them the news I can't be helpful, it seems pretty routine to them also.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#82
My company, Root Labs, has consulted on various lawsuits. We aren't trial witnesses but we've done supporting work, such as reverse engineering and writing a detailed technical analysis of how a product works. This report was then reviewed by the testifying expert, who wrote their own report to be entered as evidence.

I recommend not working as a testifying expert for a few reasons:

- You have to take sides, and the other side will never want to work with you again. Are you sure you'll never want to work with AT&T if you represented Verizon once, for example? What if you want a job there some day?

- Despite the term "expert", it comes down to how you present yourself in the courtroom versus what you know. The opponent's "expert" might seem more believable than you, despite being wrong about the technical issues.

- You have to stick to one particular area of technology your whole career, and many of the cases cover the same ground. Do you want to be "Ethernet Implementation Person" your whole life?

- A lot of the work is boring, and lawyers are generally not technically adept. Juries are worse. So if you love explaining something repeatedly in oversimplified terms, maybe you'd like this.

Usually testifying experts are older and do it after they've finished a career in some subject area. It might make sense at that point as a second career.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#83
post #3

I've done several patent trials as a lay/fact witness in cases involving patents related to an employment contract addendum I created when I worked for Amazon. The contract described various early web tech hacks (such as embedding session IDs in the URL) and denied Amazon the chance to patent them (0). In the first one, I was in court while the plaintiff's damages expert witness (there to estimate how much this large…

That he was paid is not enough reason to invalidate his testimony. Everyone in court that day, the lawyers, the judge, you, were paid. Why not him? If he indeed has expertise that would win his party's case, what exactly is wrong with getting paid, even paid handsomely, for his being there? This seems a lawyerly sort of ad hominem to discount expert testimony without directly challenging the evidence.

The jurors are free to ignore the lawyers and rely on the expert's testimony. But they're also free to conclude that said expert just provides the desired opinions on demand. I would guess the lack of time invested in performing the analysis counted for as much with the jury as the high fee; patent litigation tends to be long and tedious, and a jury is likely to reflect on the fact that they're being asked to spend much more of their valuable time on listening to and deliberating the competing claims, without being well-compensated themselves.

(It's worth recalling that most people don't want or simply can't afford to do jury duty because it barely pays for travel and food expenses; thus juries tend tobe made up of the financially independent or those with accommodating employers. Commercial litigation would look very different if juries were drawn from, say, the boards of firms in some other industrial sector, who were required to commit 1 month a year to dispute resolution on a pro bono basis and would more truly qualify as peers of the disputing parties.)

I'm guessing from the gp's description that the estimate of losses was ultimately derived from a lawyerly formula of a sort derived from previous judgments and arguments developed in law review journals, as opposed to an economic history of the business unit that had monetized the patents. If so, the nominally independent analysis is basically just putting a neutral face on a legalistic assessment that was done by counsel for both sides before the expert was hired.

lawyerly sort of ad hominem

True enough; juries respond to emotional cues, and an arched-eyebrow dismissal is more convincing than whiny remonstration or interrogative bluster. But juries are also emotionally intelligent, and if one party's side is all posture and little substance they're likely to pick up on that.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#84

I once sat on a jury for a personal injury trial. The medical expert witness for the insurance company was an orthopedic surgeon who was renowned as one of the best in the area. The witness for the plaintiff was the head of her department and the man who literally trained her to do her work professionally.

And? Your comment could almost be intriguing, but as you left it is almost meaningless. Here's personA acting as a witness, but the counter witness is personA's ex-boss just isn't too usefull. Have you 100% always agreed lock-step with whatever your boss has said? Is it impossible that the student becomes the master becoming better than the teacher? I'm just not really sure the point to which you were trying to make.

Maybe his point was that those witnesses would most likely agree on the topic at hand, but are on opposite sides of the argument.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#85
post #58

I really don't want to go into details for obvious reasons, but I was close with someone who was called frequently for cases regarding sampled music with some pretty big stakes and could speak with a lot of perceived (and honestly, well earned) authority. He would show an FFT analysis and time waveform and say "See? they look nothing alike". I pointed out that it's pretty easy for things to look completely different…

unfortunately, this sort of garbage is really common in court. the FBI crime lab is kind of notorious for this kind of nonsense comparison --- see https://www.propublica.org/article/with-photo-analysis-fbi-l... Every few years I teach a kind of super-basic stats (plus some python) class to law students mostly for the purpose of equipping them with the tools to notice that expert witnesses are lying to them.

That was a great read.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#86

The economics of most employment is a tradeoff between how much value you add to the equation and how much you can extract (you can also participate with resource depletion and leveraging of starting capital, but for most employees value insertion vs value extraction is the main issue). Are you a nontechnical sales drone who can't figure out when your product fits the requirements, but you are a mandatory middleman b…

Is there even a consistent notion to the idea of a person adding a set amount of value? If we take a 3 person company and use a simple system to measure value added, how do you break down the value added by A who is +100k, B who is x2, and C who is x2? If you remove either B or C, half he value of the company is gone, so they each add half. But if you remove A then the entire value of the company disappears. So they…

What do you mean by "B who is x2, and C who is x2?"

I think the fundamental insight provided by the model is that each of A, B, and C are human, and have comparable intelligence, skill, and efficiency. But if B draws half the salary of A for 12 hours of sales calls in which he gets a lot of details wrong, while A spends 600 hours customizing the product for the user, that's ridiculous. It's not believeable for one expert witness to be worth thousands of dollars an hour while someone in the same profession with the same education and experience, but without connections to some buddies who went to law school, is only worth $20/hr. That's why juries freak out when they learn what expert witnesses are compensated.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#87
post #5

I was an expert witness this year. In that case, I wasn't paid by either side. But I can understand better why people ask for big paydays. The opposing side does their best to make you and your statements look bad. Even when you know that's what they are doing, it's quite unpleasant. The lawyer on the side I was supporting said that this unpleasantness was why they often had to pay handsomely for testimony.

Was this for a case that you had strong feelings about, or was there another reason that you did this pro bono?

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I meant was that expert witnesses are not in the courtroom to testify on matters of fact. They are presented (and potentially qualified) as "experts" and are their to tell the court their conclusions about some matter.

Thanks for the clarification. > They are presented (and potentially qualified) as "experts" Does this not follow a proper scientific method? The expert draws some conclusion based on some scientific process they performed. The other side can challenge the data, method, chain of custody, record keeping, expertise of anyone working on it, and so on. You keep putting the term expert in quotes. What is the bar of an expe…

I can't answer for Paul Davis, but expertise is often a matter of persuasion and marketing. One might be qualified through credentials or experience, or some combination of the two, but many expert witnesses also lean on their prior service as a witness or training instructor, which is treated as commensurate with experience even though it is actually an assertion of social proof.

There isn't a hard methodological requirement - rather, testimony is accepted (or not) on the basis of adversarial dispute. In some dispute between peers it would probably work as you hope, eg a metallurgist offering an opinion on similarity of two industrial processes.

But consider criminal trials, which often turn on expert testimony. There you have a big asymmetry between the government prosecutors (who come into court with a de facto presumption of integrity) and defendants who may be unsympathetic, as well as reliant upon a poorly-resourced public defender. An officer's suspicions or use of force may often be supported in court by expert testimony more notable for its intensity than its applicability; the jury is encouraged to imagine the worst-case scenario rather than assess the probability that it happens. The quality of forensic evidence and procedures can and does fall short of scientific rigor. Often this involves unscientific claims of perfect reliability which leverage the jury's uninformed respect for scientific matters; a 2009 government report on forensic evidence found that 95% of testimony submitted by the FBI fell short of scientific validity. A subsequent study summarizes efforts to place legal consideration of scientific evidence on a more rigorous footing: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/mic...

Sometimes expert witnesses are just not qualified. During the last presidential campaign a woman alleged she had been sexually assaulted by Joe Biden when he was a US senator, which naturally attracted journalistic scrutiny. She had previously been an expert witness on sexual assault in 10 criminal cases, based on credentials and experience. Subsequent investigation (first by the media, later by a DA's office) established that she did not hold the academic qualification she claimed to have, though whether this claim was rooted in misunderstanding or mendacity was not established. I don't believe her testimony was dispositive in those trials, but in all 10 her credentials were accepted rather than verified.

A big issue in US law arises out of the adversarial nature of the legal system: even where expert testimony may be invalid or outright false, if it is not successfully challenged at the trial stage then it is very difficult to raise its invalidity as an issue at appeal after conviction/litigation. You could have proof or even an admission of unreliability, and that might be fully accepted by the appeal court, but an unjust conviction might be upheld on the basis that the expert witnesses' expertise or testimony should have been impeached at or before the trial stage, and the defense's failure to do so was a strategic error rather than a failure of the court. This is exacerbated by the fact that appeal courts consider only arguments of law, but not of fact. The overall good of the legal process is given greater weight than the reliability of any individual outcome; in practice, a certain amount of injustice is accepted as the price of getting things done.

Thus, many criminal appeals involve a convict to first attack their former defense counsel for bad lawyering and to win that argument, in order to force reconsideration or a new trial in the original court. Years can pass between the discovery or proof of error (or even innocence), and legal exoneration and release from prison, perhaps even from death row. You can see how the uncritical acceptance or over-valuation of 'expertise' can have a compounding effect as a case moves through the legal system, with many flawed outcomes going unfixed because the burden of repair exceeds the injured party's legal leverage, similar to the accumulation of technical debt.

If you're interested in this topic (and you should be, because the legal system of a country shapes not only case outcomes but policy formation, cultural mores, and cognitive styles), read Adversarial Legalism by Robert Kagan, whose basic ideas are succinctly summarized here: https://law.stanford.edu/publications/the-same-only-differen...

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#90

The economics of most employment is a tradeoff between how much value you add to the equation and how much you can extract (you can also participate with resource depletion and leveraging of starting capital, but for most employees value insertion vs value extraction is the main issue). Are you a nontechnical sales drone who can't figure out when your product fits the requirements, but you are a mandatory middleman b…

This isn't employment. Nothing is being produced. It's a rent collected on a regulation that structurally flows money to certain classes of people.

The market for this is determined exclusively by the details of the laws that regulate how the the trials are run.

It's not some kind of free market thing.

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