Live data from Hacker News

The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

thehustle.co

41–50 of 113 posts

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#41
It should be noted that, in the context of a legal proceeding, “expertise” is both broader and narrower than the common usage. “Broader” in the sense that evidentiary law rigidly distinguishes between fact testimony, which for the most part is the testimony of people with personal knowledge of the facts, from expert testimony. As a result, the latter can include things like accounting, summarizing, or analyzing financial numbers to calculate damages.

On the other hand, the Supreme Court’s decision in Daubert v. Merrill Dow imposes the requirement that expertise be based on “reliable” methods. That would arguably exclude a number of academic discipline that aren’t based on such methods.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#42

I wonder how much the lawyer is being paid for their expertise? Kind of rich to imply that the expert witness' motivation should be called into question when that question could even more easily be turned around on the lawyer. Why would we believe any of the facts of the matter laid out by a lawyer when their paycheck (and future paychecks) depends on the outcome of the case? In fact, the lawyer is paid to lay out th…

But everyone knows the lawyer for one of the parties in a trial is representing his party and is not some neutral observer. But expert witnesses are presented as essentially neutral experts making their own determinations on areas of expertise. Being explicit about the money paid to the expert makes the situation much more clear; not so for the lawyer.

I disagree. If the lawyer is trying to call the process into question rather than addressing the facts, it's important to remind the jury of lawyer's questionable part of the process as well. Fallacious reasoning shouldn't stand in a courtroom.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#43
I went to one day of the Apple - Samsung trial in San Jose in front of Judge Lucy Koh. Google indemnifies Android manufacturers against stuff like this, so we were heavily involved.

Samsung put up three expert witnesses the day I was there. Amber Heard's lawyer is incompetent, because she should have asked what they got paid per hour, not the total. They have to know that.

The first guy said he got $450 / hour. The second guy, a very experienced and articulate professor from MIT, got $850 / hour. They asked him how many hours he put in, and he said 900.

Q: So that's a lot of money, huh?

A: It was a lot of work

The last guy was a professor from a university in western Canada (Manitoba maybe). He said he got $350 / hour.

I probably wasn't the only one in the court thinking "Loser!"

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#44
post #3

I've done several patent trials as a lay/fact witness in cases involving patents related to an employment contract addendum I created when I worked for Amazon. The contract described various early web tech hacks (such as embedding session IDs in the URL) and denied Amazon the chance to patent them (0). In the first one, I was in court while the plaintiff's damages expert witness (there to estimate how much this large…

That he was paid is not enough reason to invalidate his testimony. Everyone in court that day, the lawyers, the judge, you, were paid. Why not him? If he indeed has expertise that would win his party's case, what exactly is wrong with getting paid, even paid handsomely, for his being there? This seems a lawyerly sort of ad hominem to discount expert testimony without directly challenging the evidence.

That's deeply naive. Incentives matter to humans. A lot in fact.

Ask any lawyer that has hired expert witnesses.

Over there entire career, ask them how many times the expert witness they hired did not come to conclusions supporting the side they were hired by. Even amongst lawyers that have hired 100's of experts, that number is usually zero.

In theory, an expert should be using their expertise to assess the situation honestly and without bias.

In practice, they will use their expertise to present the most credible argument they can think of in support of the side that hired them.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand, "lawerly ad hominem" is most of what cross-examination is. The jury is free to recognize that impugning the character and/or motives of a witness is only a probabilistic argument that they're lying or wrong, and not a deductive argument.

I believe that "ad hominem" is not actually a fallacy in general. Like anywhere intent is involved. And in math too. You can never take the camera out of the room, if you see the camera taken out of the room that's not the camera, that's a camera, you're looking through *the * camera. "Hidden camera" scenes involve a second hidden camera, only some of the shots are made pointing at the camera, plus the "fools" in pra…

Welcome, GPT-3 or it's cousin! So glad you could join us.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#47
A former neighbor made a living doing this. He was an MIT-trained physicist with a very unusual area of expertise that was somehow in demand in certain types of personal injury cases. I think it might have been how things bounce.

That was his only occupation. His wife had a regular job that provided health insurance and income in between expert witness gigs.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#48
post #27

I've done several patent trials as a lay/fact witness in cases involving patents related to an employment contract addendum I created when I worked for Amazon. The contract described various early web tech hacks (such as embedding session IDs in the URL) and denied Amazon the chance to patent them (0). In the first one, I was in court while the plaintiff's damages expert witness (there to estimate how much this large…

I recently was a juror in a personal injury case. It wasn’t quite cut and dry questioning but the result was the same. An insurance company medical expert was testifying and it went similarly. Under questioning it was clear that: - This doctor never actually examined the injured patient. - They reviewed some… but not all of the medical documents. - Their conclusions were strangely specific for not having reviewed som…

Same thing happened with the psychiatrist Amber Heard hired to diagnose Johnny Depp without ever meeting him.

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a person, nominally an expert, saying what they think/know and providing some expert-y looking handwaving to back it up. Disagree. The other side have the ability to qualify the expert witness during voir dire [0]. The other side's also have the opportunity to find their expert to counter and bring in expertise. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire

What I meant was that expert witnesses are not in the courtroom to testify on matters of fact. They are presented (and potentially qualified) as "experts" and are their to tell the court their conclusions about some matter.

Thanks for the clarification.

> They are presented (and potentially qualified) as "experts"

Does this not follow a proper scientific method? The expert draws some conclusion based on some scientific process they performed. The other side can challenge the data, method, chain of custody, record keeping, expertise of anyone working on it, and so on.

You keep putting the term expert in quotes. What is the bar of an expert in your mind?

Re: The lucrative economics of expert witnesses

#50
post #9

I co-authored an expert witness report once. We were paid about $500/hour. That wasn't out of line with what we normally charged clients but, it was actually quite a lucrative job for us given we charged for travel, research, etc. which were often at least partially unpaid time with our regular work. It was a very interesting project but it made you appreciate why big lawsuits cost so much. I think our expert witness…

Interesting. The two times I worked for litigators they told me they _never_ pay travel time. I even checked with my bil litigator (different industry) and he confirmed the practice. Otoh they said I could charge whatever hourly rate I wanted for actual work.

Long time ago and the travel was very limited. I may not be remembering properly but it would have been very small potatoes in any case. (And may have been adjusted at the back end as I didn't handle the business side.)

I expect "whatever you want" exists within some sort of customary and reasonable window.

In any case, my basic point was that our regular consulting had a lot of off the clock time which this didn't.

Post reply on HN