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Computers are an oppressive technology

devever.net

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Re: Computers are an oppressive technology

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computers are fine but total computerisation of human society may not be so. That's actually what the article should have explored in my opinion. Computers are neither ruthless nor kind, its controllers, humans, are. So the question then becomes, who controls them and how sophisticated they (the computers) become, and how much they infiltrate our world. A simple thought... should everything that can theoretically be…

Whether computers count as ruthless depends on fine details of your definition of ruthless. If you mean the mental/emotional state necessary for a human to act without regard for consequences of their actions to other people, then computers are not ruthless. If you just mean acting without consideration of how their their actions will affect people then computers fit this definition of ruthless perfectly by virtue of…

> If you mean the mental/emotional state necessary for a human to act without regard for consequences of their actions to other people, then computers are not ruthless.

I don't understand, what am I missing?

I've never seen a computer have any regard for the consequences of its decisions. Computers are thus completely ruthless.

Re: Computers are an oppressive technology

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly have seen with my own eyes a train door "ruthlessly separate a child from his parent". I don't think I've ever seen an adult so distraught. I have also seen with my own eyes a lift door close on the head of an extremely elderly man. These things do happen.

> I don't think I've ever seen an adult so distraught. And no one pulled the stop train cord? The train just pulled away, business as usual, leaving them separated?

It’s not obvious to me that the train pulling away was the point here. It is merely a meditation on the fact that machines are “absolutely incorruptible”, so if we’re talking about the same thing, it is a tangential fact if some human did or did not pull the cord.

If we are talking about how human intervention softens the incorruptibility of machines, then what you wrote supports that point.

If we are talking about if machines are inherently good or evil, then we have somewhere changed the topic in the middle.

Re: Computers are an oppressive technology

#83
The oppressiveness described by the article is not about computers, but about rigid design — design with few affordances. Or, design with missing affordances — affordances that intuitively should exist but do not, due to various material or intellectual constraints when designing the thing.

Which leads me to disagree with the article that computers are inherently oppressive. Because with more resources, we can design computers with more and better affordances.

Re: Computers are an oppressive technology

#84

This oppressiveness is not inherent to computers, it's inherent to the people and institutions making use of them. The examples in the article say it all: government bureaucracies, beverage dispensers. They own the computers and impose their own rules on us, rules like deadlines and brand checking. We don't want these rules but they impose it on us all the same. Computers are neutral technology. It's just that we are…

> Computers are neutral technology.

Don't make me tap the sign: Technology. Is. Not. Neutral.

A shame so few technophiles have read Jacques Ellul[1]. Ellul's La Technique (and his later "Propaganda") should be mandatory reading for anyone thinking about systems. Be careful though, this thinker/philosopher has verbalized a problem that made Ted Kaczinsky conclude the only solution is for us as a species to retreat into the forests and vanish into the trees. Read Ellul at your own risk.

About the rest I agree, but this is complaining about a system that works _exactly_ as intended. Read Ellul!

[1] "La Technique" (The technological society) https://archive.org/details/technologicalsoc00ellu

Re: Computers are an oppressive technology

#85

This oppressiveness is not inherent to computers, it's inherent to the people and institutions making use of them. The examples in the article say it all: government bureaucracies, beverage dispensers. They own the computers and impose their own rules on us, rules like deadlines and brand checking. We don't want these rules but they impose it on us all the same. Computers are neutral technology. It's just that we are…

The best thing about this topic I've read is an article by Melvin Kranzberg as "Kranzberg's laws" https://doi.org/10.2307/3105385 .

There are six laws.

1) Technology is neither good nor bad; nor is it neutral.

2) Invention is the mother of necessity.

3) Technology comes in packages, big and small.

4) Although technology might be a prime element in many public issues, nontechnical factors take precedence in technology-policy decisions.

5) All history is relevant, but the history of technology is the most relevant.

6) Technology is a very human activity-and so is the history of technology.

Re: Computers are an oppressive technology

#87
Is mathematics an inherently oppressive study? Computers are simply tools for performing mathematical calculations, a very fancy abacus, if you will. The fact that humans use them as a tool for oppressing other humans is nothing to do with the nature of the computer, and everything to do with the nature of human societies.

Is paper an inherently oppressive technology because it was used to hold rules and contracts which bind people? How about trains, airplanes, automobiles, or rockets?

Are horses inherently oppressive animals because they were used by Genghis Khan to sweep the world with his armies? Is wheat an inherently oppressive plant because it enabled the rise of unequal societies with division of labor? Are dogs evil symbols of oppression for their many nefarious uses?

Re: Computers are an oppressive technology

#88
Maybe computers are "inherently oppressive" but this is about the weakest and most inneffective argument for that I can imagine.

Let's start with the "ruthlessness" of closing automated train doors in the tedious and pointless opening anecdote. Why is that bad? It's bad if you have main character syndrome. But that one person missing their train might otherwise be a delay for hundreds of other people. It may have a knock-on impact to other train schedules.

Moving on to:

> What is particularly interesting about The Terminator however is its immediate sequel, which pits two Terminators against one another.

It's almost like these machines reflect the will of their masters. They're tools. They're no more "ruthless" than a hammer is. Is anyone arguing a hammer is "ruthless" because you can kill someone with one?

And then we take a weird turn into "cryptoanarchism". I suspect crypto apologism (or just propaganda) was always the point. The author is somehow "optimistic" on the integrity of crypto systems while arguing machines are "ruthless"? Huh?

Re: Computers are an oppressive technology

#89

This oppressiveness is not inherent to computers, it's inherent to the people and institutions making use of them. The examples in the article say it all: government bureaucracies, beverage dispensers. They own the computers and impose their own rules on us, rules like deadlines and brand checking. We don't want these rules but they impose it on us all the same. Computers are neutral technology. It's just that we are…

> Computers are neutral technology. Don't make me tap the sign: Technology. Is. Not. Neutral. A shame so few technophiles have read Jacques Ellul[1]. Ellul's La Technique (and his later "Propaganda") should be mandatory reading for anyone thinking about systems. Be careful though, this thinker/philosopher has verbalized a problem that made Ted Kaczinsky conclude the only solution is for us as a species to retreat int…

A 500+ page book is beyond most peoples tree time to explore from a comments faith alone so here's a summary I found (the quality of which is unknown) since I'm always interested to some degree in new perspectives (https://www.supersummary.com/the-technological-society/summa...):

While Ellul separates technique from the individual machines that contribute to its reign, he maintains that machines represent an ideal state for the forces that govern technique. Humans, on the other hand, are not ideal at all. We lack the efficiency and predictability of machines. Therefore, Ellul says, technique is the social adaptation that exists in transforming the messy lives of humans so that they better fit into a world controlled by machinery. Further, in a somewhat terrifying turn of phrase, he adds that technique is "the consciousness of the mechanized world."

So humans adapt to technology and as technology becomes more efficient we just become cogs of technology is the core principle here and I can see how this relationship could be thought to arise however I completely disagree with it. Technology does enable efficiency at a fundamental level but it's not that humans become slaves to the efficiency or technique, it's that some humans chose to force other humans into increasingly more efficient means.

There is some feedback relation here in that in a global competitive environment as leaders around the world continue to compete in various forms they will inherently drive their populations into deeper efficiency I believe but the rise to all of this is because of the global competitive environment. It's largely social constructs and to some degree, finite resources that drive these behaviors and lead to efficiency focus. More than anything it's greed and hunger for power that drives this nonsense.

Most humans recognize when their lives become dominated by some silly efficiency and don't care to follow suit. Their want autonomy, to own their life and own their choices. They're instead forced into "the technique" so to speak as a secondary effect. The underlying effect is what needs to be rutted out, technology isn't the fundamental issue here, it's a set of human behaviors and institutions that exist and enable them.

Re: Computers are an oppressive technology

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether computers count as ruthless depends on fine details of your definition of ruthless. If you mean the mental/emotional state necessary for a human to act without regard for consequences of their actions to other people, then computers are not ruthless. If you just mean acting without consideration of how their their actions will affect people then computers fit this definition of ruthless perfectly by virtue of…

> If you mean the mental/emotional state necessary for a human to act without regard for consequences of their actions to other people, then computers are not ruthless. I don't understand, what am I missing? I've never seen a computer have any regard for the consequences of its decisions. Computers are thus completely ruthless.

I think the GP points to the fact that given the inability of computers to evaluate the consequences of its programming, ruthlessness is a concept that cannot apply to them because by definition involves disregard about those consequences, not ignorance.

edit: typo

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