Don't Call Yourself a Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#91

Post by chc » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 5:40 AM UTC

daviddaviddavid wrote: post #79

mattdeboard wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not a thing is true is orthogonal to whether or not you want the thing to be true. I'm a new programmer but not new to business. He hit the nail right on the head for just about any profession (minus to the programming-specific bits).

Saying that the truth of X and the desire that X be true/false are orthogonal is rather like saying that "things just are the way they are". While this is the case in scientific matters, it's definitely not the case in social matters. There are plenty of things that I and others can do to bring about a business climate that fixes some of the shittiness that the author lays out.

There's not a whole lot you can do about it if you're stuck working 70 hours a week for $35k a year for a boss (or series of bosses) who would very much like to send your job to India. Patrick's guide is just about how to be successful in the culture that exists now. If you manage to completely transform the tech industry, more power to you. But even if you do, that will not be tomorrow, or the day after, or even 10 years after that. Until then, Patrick's guide will continue to be useful.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#92

Post by beezee » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 5:48 AM UTC

cwp wrote: post #62

psykotic wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the context. Patrick's formulation is so commonplace as to be cliche. Code is our medium of expression. There's nothing inaccurate or ignominious about describing ourselves as programmers. To say that the code exists to solve problems is to flirt with tautology.

You still miss the point, though. Patrick isn't saying that calling yourself a programmer is inaccurate or ignominious. He's saying that it's not going to have a desirable effect on the listener. He's saying you should talk about the value you create, rather than the effort you expend.

This is marketing 101- the issue is why would you work somewhere that you have to continuously market yourself just to keep your job? That's what the interview is for.

Personally in my experience working with startups, everyone at the company knows why I'm there, what I do, and there's no question about the value I bring. What I call myself just doesn't matter. I would wish this type of experience for everyone.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#93

Post by sliverstorm » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 5:49 AM UTC

At the end of the day, your life happiness will not be dominated by your career.

That said, a crappy career can put a serious chokehold on life happiness. You spend close to half your waking hours at it, after all.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#94

Post by rickmb » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 5:50 AM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #36

bryanh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps taken in context one might have read it as "if you describe your sole value as the ability to write code, someone is already working on a way to get you fired".

A programmer, to me, is someone who is familiar with the entire process of software development. From gathering requirements, to designing interfaces, to writing code, to delivering and supporting the final product. I believe the term normally used to refer to someone who can only write code is code monkey.

You should get out in the real world more and especially talk to people who are not in software development.

What you call a code monkey is what the rest of the world considers a programmer.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#95

Post by freemarketteddy » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 5:54 AM UTC

seancron wrote: post #90

freemarketteddy wrote: post #22

I think Patrick is missing a niche segment of Hackers who have been making a lot of money in last few years.They are the independent Mobile App Developer(iOS/Android) If you choose this path then you dont even have to start a company,all you need to do is make awesome apps.It might be a little hard to start but in a year you should be making good enough money to go independent and then sky is the limit.It is not only…

From the article: "Most software is not sold in boxes, available on the Internet, or downloaded from the App Store. " all you need to do is make awesome apps. Oh, is that all? The fact is that it's hard to make awesome apps or awesome anything that also makes people enough money to go entirely independent. Especially if you have a family that you need to support. And even if you do decide to be an independent mobile…

Yes in fact that is all...when I say awesome I do mean applications that create real value for people.No bullshit...just good products that people will love to use.

You are right.If you have a family and dont really have a million saved,it is not in your best interests to quit your job and jump into the risky world of independent app development.But you can over a period of a year or two (by building up your codebase) get to a point where you are making more money than your corporate job.It is at that point that I recommend you fully jump ship.

Agreed that initially you'll have trouble understanding the market and finding applications that people really want.But once you learn to gauge the market, build awesome apps and then market them effectively to people you will lead a much better life than some 9-5 engineering manager at xyz corp filing TPS reports and sucking up to your boss for a promotion.

Judging by the current growth of smartphone market even a good calculator app is bound to make you a lot of money in the long run if you can market it effectively.

And finally if you know how to search effectively on github you will realize that most of the required classes are already built and open sourced by some hacker out there.And if not maybe you can build it and open source it for your fellow hackers.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#96

Post by haldean » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 5:57 AM UTC

emmett wrote: post #83

gruseom wrote: post #74

Is this article's claim about Google -- that the programmers closest to Adwords revenue have highest status (edit: and/or pay) -- true? It contradicts what I've heard.

I don't think he said they had the highest status...I think he said they were the best paid. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but it's a very different claim. (I too have heard differently)

This is not true -- pay is not based on project.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#97

Post by ananthrk » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 5:58 AM UTC

ycapply2011 wrote: post #17

>> ”What is your previous salary?” is employer-speak for “Please give me reasons to pay you less money.” Answer appropriately. What is the proper approach to answering this question?

Whenever a question on salary negotiation appears on HN, I am reminded of this old comment from mahmud : http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1475678

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#98

Post by freemarketteddy » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 6:00 AM UTC

LVB wrote: post #72

freemarketteddy wrote: post #22

I think Patrick is missing a niche segment of Hackers who have been making a lot of money in last few years.They are the independent Mobile App Developer(iOS/Android) If you choose this path then you dont even have to start a company,all you need to do is make awesome apps.It might be a little hard to start but in a year you should be making good enough money to go independent and then sky is the limit.It is not only…

I'll just say that based only on reading his post, I'm 100% sure that Patrick wouldn't agree with your career advice.

Yes I think so too.I think this option was simply not available to Patrick when he started figuring his way out of his corporate soul-crushing job.The path that he took was probably the best under those circumstances.

But now (thanks to services like Parse,Twilio,Github and so many others) I think a good hacker has a decent chance of making it to financial independence completely on his own.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#99

Post by jacquesgt » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 6:00 AM UTC

ycapply2011 wrote: post #17

>> ”What is your previous salary?” is employer-speak for “Please give me reasons to pay you less money.” Answer appropriately. What is the proper approach to answering this question?

I typically answer with a range where the lower end is the amount of money I'm hoping to make and the high end is $5k to $10k above that. Then I add on, "but I'm getting great benefits, so that would have to be factored in as well." My current salary doesn't really figure into my answer.

Re: Don't Call Yourself a Programmer

#100

Post by freemarketteddy » Sat, Oct 29, 2011, 6:04 AM UTC

rodh257 wrote: post #65

freemarketteddy wrote: post #22

I think Patrick is missing a niche segment of Hackers who have been making a lot of money in last few years.They are the independent Mobile App Developer(iOS/Android) If you choose this path then you dont even have to start a company,all you need to do is make awesome apps.It might be a little hard to start but in a year you should be making good enough money to go independent and then sky is the limit.It is not only…

I'd be interested to see the stats on people making apps on HN vs people actually making a lot of money on them

Search around on HN.You will find a lot threads with Single Founder success stories in recent times.Probably more than Startup Success stories.Two names that come to mind are Instapaper and BigNoggins productions.