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Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

blog.mollywhite.net

221–230 of 295 posts

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#221

The problem I have with blockchain enthusiasts, after talking with them about their philosophy, is that they seem to consider trust a bug, and believe that ideal world is achievable with straitjackets of technical solutions that eliminate trust. Trust is a feature, not a bug. If trust is violated by rogue agents, it is because they exist[0], not because trust itself is a folly. However, blockchain-adjacent initiative…

The reality is that as you move up the social hierarchy in modern human society, trust tends to vanish and is ultimately viewed as something only a rube would rely on. This is why contract law exists, doesn't it? For example, in the upper tiers of corporations all employment is on a contract basis. Nobody at these levels trusts they will be treated fairly and given a severance package if they are fired, without an ex…

> This is why contract law exists, doesn't it?

When I worked with non-trivial (>$1m) contracts, I learned that the sooner you start pointing to contract language, the sooner the relationship breaks down. “Working with” partners through shortfalls and giving second chances resulted in much more long term success than sticking to the letter of the contract.

Part of the reason, I think, is simple human relationship-building. And a big part of that is trust. Trust and credit also play into it directly - the vendor knows we didn’t penalize them when they delivered a feature a month late, so they’re willing to surge when we have a requirement pop up that needs fixing quicker than we agreed to.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#222

The problem I have with blockchain enthusiasts, after talking with them about their philosophy, is that they seem to consider trust a bug, and believe that ideal world is achievable with straitjackets of technical solutions that eliminate trust. Trust is a feature, not a bug. If trust is violated by rogue agents, it is because they exist[0], not because trust itself is a folly. However, blockchain-adjacent initiative…

It's a symptom of our mentally ill society trying to rationalize why in 2022 we haven't solved a bunch or practical problems and yet every year we get new iterations of the IPhone, AI in cars, new services in apps, ect... We start from an idea that Moore's Law somehow correlates with social progress but I think that tremendously remains to be seen. There's a noted relationship between teen suicides and social media (on phones) and one-for-one computing in education hasn't produced the generation of Einsteins and Mozarts that it thought it might in the 70s and 80s. I think crypto is the human imagination trying to bridge the gap between our social arrangements and technological progress and I think at its core that is a good thing. We need to dream big if we're going to build a livable world but that also requires discipline and that's something we're severely lacking in society.

I think there's a sort of person that thinks to themselves, "I want all the benefits of living in an advanced society without actually being obligated to participate in said society." I can't help but think this is a kind of sickness. Self-Determination doesn't necessarily exclude social obligation it only dictates that I might not be tyrannized by these obligations.

There's a kind of, "e-person" who is the perfect Cartesian. The new existentialist who reaps the benefits of a globalized society and what is their sacrifice to the world-machine? --Just their continued existence; nothing more.

Without being crude we used to call those people tramps until Charlie Chaplin taught us to be nice to poor people.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#223
post #217

Much of the problem with crypto-skepticism is that basically every problem it raises is true. The argument is effectively boiled down to “here are a bunch of people working on very hard problems. Hard problems are hard, and therefore crypto won’t work”. If you were to replace the word crypto with “computers” or “space travel”, most folks here would push back, saying that “yes these are hard problems, but there’s a lo…

Most of the crypto-enthusiasts I’ve met in the real world seem to be motivated more by narrow-minded self-enrichment rather than a genuine belief that society can be reshaped to serve humanity better. The more ideological ones seem to be driven by an arsonist’s enthusiasm for destroying and subverting existing systems rather than an architect’s enthusiasm for building something better.

I can appreciate the potential of the technology, but that doesn’t mean I embrace the community.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#224
post #217

Much of the problem with crypto-skepticism is that basically every problem it raises is true. The argument is effectively boiled down to “here are a bunch of people working on very hard problems. Hard problems are hard, and therefore crypto won’t work”. If you were to replace the word crypto with “computers” or “space travel”, most folks here would push back, saying that “yes these are hard problems, but there’s a lo…

Most of the crypto-enthusiasts I’ve met in the real world seem to be motivated more by narrow-minded self-enrichment rather than a genuine belief that society can be reshaped to serve humanity better. The more ideological ones seem to be driven by an arsonist’s enthusiasm for destroying and subverting existing systems rather than an architect’s enthusiasm for building something better. I can appreciate the potential…

> I can appreciate the potential of the technology, but that doesn’t mean I embrace the community.

That seems fine, and is basically the opinion I hold.

The intellectually challenging thing about crypto is that it is very easy to go from “I don’t like these people” to “these people’s predictions are wrong”.

Hacker news seems so caught up in disliking a subset crypto people, that they assume that not only are they “bad people”, but they’re wrong.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#225
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you respond to the wrong comment? I have no idea what you are trying to say here sorry.

I could ask you the same. You responded to > in the end, it boils down to everyone just asking to see the passport or some other government ID, or a proxy for that (credit card, library card, with a standard on distributed identity. That doesn't answer the question. I doubled down on what OP said. So if you don't see how my response isn't a follow-up, then the three of us are talking past each other.

I suggest you read my w3 consortium link. Self sovereign identities and decentralised identities very much overlap to the point of being synonyms.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#226
post #217

Much of the problem with crypto-skepticism is that basically every problem it raises is true. The argument is effectively boiled down to “here are a bunch of people working on very hard problems. Hard problems are hard, and therefore crypto won’t work”. If you were to replace the word crypto with “computers” or “space travel”, most folks here would push back, saying that “yes these are hard problems, but there’s a lo…

I spent a lot of time reading into crypto, trying out some dApps and trying to understand whether or not there was some usefulness beyond online value transmission. We’ve all read the same articles here but long story short I see no reason to buy or hold and unless something changes I think it’s so far been a terrible waste of energy. Both electricity and human energy.

I’ll reevaluate in a year or two. I think something like ripple could work, and maybe some non eth based dapp platform. But currently none of the coins really seem like a good investment and I’ll continue working on regular ass applications.

I wanted to find something new and amazing, but it feels like more of a religion to me. I guess it’d be cool if something incredible precipitated in a couple decades but I’m not holding my breath.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#227
post #217

Much of the problem with crypto-skepticism is that basically every problem it raises is true. The argument is effectively boiled down to “here are a bunch of people working on very hard problems. Hard problems are hard, and therefore crypto won’t work”. If you were to replace the word crypto with “computers” or “space travel”, most folks here would push back, saying that “yes these are hard problems, but there’s a lo…

> If you were to replace the word crypto with “computers” or “space travel”

Sputnik was launched in 1957 [0] - it did nothing except orbit and beep. Telstar, the first commercial communications satellite was launched in 1962 (5 years later) - it relayed television signals, photos and phone calls [1].

Blockchain cryptocurrencies started with Bitcoin in 2009, and it's now 2022 (13 years). How long are we supposed to wait for a practical application that solves a real problem? I guess we're supposed to conclude that making literally any broadly useful blockchain application is in fact much harder than commercial space travel or computers.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telstar

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#228
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the crypto-enthusiasts I’ve met in the real world seem to be motivated more by narrow-minded self-enrichment rather than a genuine belief that society can be reshaped to serve humanity better. The more ideological ones seem to be driven by an arsonist’s enthusiasm for destroying and subverting existing systems rather than an architect’s enthusiasm for building something better. I can appreciate the potential…

> I can appreciate the potential of the technology, but that doesn’t mean I embrace the community. That seems fine, and is basically the opinion I hold. The intellectually challenging thing about crypto is that it is very easy to go from “I don’t like these people” to “these people’s predictions are wrong”. Hacker news seems so caught up in disliking a subset crypto people, that they assume that not only are they “ba…

I agree. I think in general if you’re saying anything interesting there’s at least some risk that you’re wrong—if you only say things that everyone already knows are true, why bother talking?

Some crypto people may be wrong a bit more than baseline because their judgement is more clouded by the dollar signs in their eyes, compared to people talking about e.g. open-source distributed databases.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Trust is fundamental to human society, and without it we can't function. No matter how many fancy technological solutions you layer on top. I think there's a deeper problem that you're ignoring. The desire for trustless systems didn't materialize out of nothing, as has been pointed out many times in the cryptocurrency discussion space. Some of it is surely coming from a libertarian angle of absolute personal…

I heard the opinion where people don’t want to pay taxes that they don’t think do something good, and because the government can freeze their accounts if they don’t pay then they believe it’s unfair. Presumably, there’s understanding that one cannot participate in a complex web of interdependencies that is advanced human society without giving up complete freedom, due to the presence of the aforementioned malicious a…

>there’s understanding that one cannot participate in a complex web of interdependencies that is advanced human society without giving up complete freedom

The problem is, that web is not just a neutral thing that arises organically, it's a bloated mess of faceless coercion that is disproportionally manipulated by a minority.

It used to be that a tribe agreed not to kill or cheat each other and defend against common threats, that's something very basic that I have trouble imagining anybody not wanting. There were manipulators and status seekers, always, but they were forced to divide their attention between the thousands and thousands of tribes and sub-tribes, if I percieve my tribe to be controlled by a trump or a biden or a putin, I can always take my family and go elsewhere, at no more cost than the price of the trip and the risk I'm accepting by leaving the tribe.

Fast forward through 10K years of agriculture, and we're sheep. Lovecraftian faceless horrors called states divide up the entire earth into 200 divisions or so, the vast majority of which are irrelevant (except in deploying violence against you :)), about 10 or 15 control pretty much 99% of what you do. The size acts as a force multiplier for manipualtors and status seekers: Now only the best trumps and bidens and putins compete to govern you, and the winner, as they say, takes all. They can do whatever the F U C K they can, let me tell you, quite honestly and coming from a guy who appreciates democracy and misses it in his country, that democracy is a laugable excuse of a government scheme. You can tell your bullies you hate them? Great, but I'm betting they already know. You can whine and threaten to get them out of the office ? that's it ? you spend a whole 2 or 4 or 6 years raging at a bunch of people and getting other people to rage with you and other people to rage against you, so that, finally, the bullies can "only" bully you as much as they already have, and not more ? and this the best case scenario that you can only get if you're good at convincing people your cause is worthy ? Is this your local optima ?

There is no feedback, the massive inertia of millions and millions of obedient drones serve to condition and dampen any single insurrection. The contradictory feedback of the huge and impotent masses all cancel each other in an orgy of destructive interference, and what remains is the will of the rulers. The coordination overhead asymmetrically influnces those trying to live in freedom, and favors those trying to crush it.

Words alone can't express how I despise and loath hierarchical societies. Words alone can't express how I loath complex huge things that are out of my control and harm me. I don't think that feelings can be serialized into strings, but if they can, it would take me a very large one to express all the myriad and subtle ways that I hate nation states.

>I don’t understand why not assume other people—whom one without immense hubris would assume to be equally smart

I don't think intelligence play into it, at least not the kind of intelligence I respect. Smart people are bullied all the time. Smart people had 10K years to fix the massive clusterfuck that is hierarchical societies or toss them into the dirstiest toilet, and they couldn't. It would be the height of hubris to assume you can succeed where billions failed.

>Is this a failure of democracy?

No, it's a failure of people being dumb enough to think that the social protocls and algorithms that fared well in networks of N=100, struggled in networks of N=1000 and absoultely tore themselves apart in networks of N=10000, can scale well to networks of N=10000000 and above. Anything that doesn't respect the underlying reality is doomed to repeatedly live in fear and failure and die in confusion, and the reality is that distributed systems are hard. It's even harder when the processors were never built to operate like this. You're trying to reinvent ants and bees with primates, and failing so hard that the result is not recognisably any of them.

"Democracy" is a bandaid, a flawed ideal that can never work, and makes things worse by making you think you're doing something.

>I just don’t think this can be solved technically

Correct, it's solved by not being large clusterfuck of coercion and control, by being small and simple and beautiful, by recognizing the fundamental limits to cooperation that being flesh and blood enforces on you, and respecting them.

>work on people not being jerks

You can't. Being a jerk is encoded in your DNA. Life competes. Life meta-competes: competes at the level of the rules of competition itself, to bend and distort it in their favor, the meta-game. Life at its very core is the aspiration of a single celled asshole to convert the entire universe into more versions of itself, it began so, and it remains so.

The only way to emulate altruism, to hack it onto a system after the fact, is to make selfish assholery more expensive than selfless altruism, always. Sometimes that would make sense, like within the boundaries of your gene pool, few people, I love to imagine, think about deceiving and coercing their flesh and blood, and fewer still actually go along all the way.

But that natural familiar affection declines exponentially as the genetic diff grows, and you have to resort to complement it with artifical measures. The problem with artifical measures, though, is that they are second-class citizens, they are never as convincing and natural as natural inlicnations. It's an uphill fight. Invent laws and rules and regulations and constitutions and religions and mainfestos Till The Cows Come Home, you can't put them in the DNA, and DNA is what life is, and what a thing is what a thing does. So it is an arms race: I invent a God today to tell people to be nice to each other, and tomorrow a smooth-talking smooth-brained asshole manages to convince people God Ackshually wants us to do his bidding instead, I invent democracy the day after tomorrow to convince people that everybody matters, and by the weekend that same breed of smooth-talking smooth-brained assholes find the exploit.

Unless, and until, every single nerve signal going in or out of a brain is subject to your rules (by dystopia, by utopian merging of all human minds into one, by anything), you don't have rules, you have suggestions, protocols, paradigm. "Would you please agree not to fuck with me ?", maybe I will, who knows, I'm not my best self all the time, and there are worse. Why put yourself with a bunch of strange assholes and bet your wellbeing on them obeying a buggy protocol they are never truly compelled to follow ?

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#230
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the right to be forgotten applies to digital records, I might be missing the context here though.

Digital records are an extension of the mind.

No they are not. They are a physical medium more akin to physical records than they are the mind.

This is such a ridiculous take it’s hard to take it seriously.

What about retention periods? About about paper copies? Should no data anywhere be regulated because it is somehow this nebulously and poorly defined “extension of the mind?”

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