Live data from Hacker News

Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

blog.mollywhite.net

211–220 of 295 posts

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#211
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even without considering the social benefits of trust, from an economic perspective, trust is often enormously, ridiculously efficient compared to distrust. If I need to borrow my neighbor's weed whacker, I don't need to determine its value (plus interest and opportunity cost) and write up a contract and register collateral on the world's slowest and least efficient database, I can just say, hey, mind if I borrow thi…

Now, let's say that you have a car that you'd like to put in a "social car-sharing app." Those participating get an opportunity to make some money, those without cars would benefit from having an increased supply, and your city would benefit because that would mean that the increased utilization of the car fleet would lead to less parking spaces being needed. Question: how would you do that without rent-extracting mi…

Do Getaround/Zipcar/Turo not fit what you’re talking about?

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#212
Hi Molly, great article.

I was just thinking about the CAP theorem again a few days ago and the trilemma you describe here, interestingly, feels quite related.

As for what I personally consider to be the heart of the problem, I believe proof of personship (or whatever a soul is) is an unsolvable problem in the most rigorous sense. This is one reason why we have government. The issue isn't that government exists, it's that we cannot trust them, nor control them effectively. Still, a local government is much better positioned to prove my identity than some nebulous algorithm. Even the crazy Orb people knew this, and took to physically scanning retinas as you mention. We just need to build trust locally again somehow.

Of course, people move and trust must be (re)bootstrapped. This is the root of the heart of the problem if you will; and a problem I cannot see concrete solutions to that don't approximate the existing systems. Here in MA, I have to both pay to get an ID, and provide various information to verify my address and initiate background checks, etc. This is all worth something, no?

So why not have local governments provide this verification service...? Well, there's another complicating factor. The higher the value of a secret (i.e. identity proof), the less one should use it, or the more careful one should be with it. If I'm asked to give out my SSN to log into some new video game, I might stop and think twice. Whereas, providing my SSN to apply for a loan from a trustworthy financial institution is pretty commonplace.

Finnaly, on data stewardship. Why not have companies like Apple and Google selling HomePods which act as local clouds which store, sync, and replicate encrypted data as requested by the user? Give me a static IPv6 and a decent authenticated tunnel into my LAN and I'm good to go! I choose what files go up to iCloud.com, I choose where 3rd party services point to for authentication credentials, and I decide when I want to delete and invalidate things!

Anyway, thanks for the thought provocation.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#213

The problem I have with blockchain enthusiasts, after talking with them about their philosophy, is that they seem to consider trust a bug, and believe that ideal world is achievable with straitjackets of technical solutions that eliminate trust. Trust is a feature, not a bug. If trust is violated by rogue agents, it is because they exist[0], not because trust itself is a folly. However, blockchain-adjacent initiative…

The reality is that as you move up the social hierarchy in modern human society, trust tends to vanish and is ultimately viewed as something only a rube would rely on. This is why contract law exists, doesn't it? For example, in the upper tiers of corporations all employment is on a contract basis. Nobody at these levels trusts they will be treated fairly and given a severance package if they are fired, without an ex…

> This is why contract law exists, doesn't it?

Or it exists so that everyone makes sure that everyone else understands the words/concepts being used in the same way.

What does (e.g.) "full payment on final construction" mean? Well, it depends on who you ask. Contracts there to (hopefully) make sure everyone is agreeing to the same transaction.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#214
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, let's say that you have a car that you'd like to put in a "social car-sharing app." Those participating get an opportunity to make some money, those without cars would benefit from having an increased supply, and your city would benefit because that would mean that the increased utilization of the car fleet would lead to less parking spaces being needed. Question: how would you do that without rent-extracting mi…

Do Getaround/Zipcar/Turo not fit what you’re talking about?

They lease their own fleets, no? I am talking about the a system where individuals can put their own vehicles in the "market" for others to use.

Edit: Okay. I am checking Turo now, I wasn't aware of them. Still, they are a middleman between car owner and driver, right? How do they make money?

Edit 2: Reading from their website, it seems like they are focusing on being a rental aggregator. All the talk about "building your business" seems to indicate their cars are not from individual owners that actually use the car. So, no, I wouldn't say they qualify as an alternative to what I am talking about.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#215
(Disclaimer: I wrote this response before I realized this was a link; I thought it one of those, "Ask HN" questions so I replied in turn. Upon reading the article I think comment still has relevancy.)

No. Give up illusions like your rights exist in some vacuous transcendental place outside of other people and society. Read, "Leviathan" by Thomas Hobbes or if you really want to get the, "tarian" washed out of your soul dig into Rousseau's, "the Social Contract."

I will state this over and over: "The Divine Right of Individuals" is a myth rooted in how the United States' constitution is worded. God isn't real and he can't give you rights and claiming in a court of law (made up of people) where evidence is of the highest concern, "God gave me rights and I'm a sovereign unto myself do to certain unalienable rights which I cannot obviously or readily demonstrate without making an appeal to hundreds of years of political development" doesn't seem a compelling enough reason for society to release a suspected criminal or the like.

Meta: The fundamental fallacy with crypto is that it ignores that the vitality of, "currencies" is quite like the vitality of languages vs their counterparts, dialects-- What makes distincts a dialect from a language? Borders and armies. It's a tough pill to swallow that the world is kind of fundamentally based on violence but once you get past what is sometimes referred to as, "Democratic Peace Theory" and have a sense of history (start with Thucydides) it becomes very hard to take the idea of cryptocurrency seriously. Digital payments have practical value. I think that's about the extent of it. Trustlessness is a character defect and a social mallady and it doesn't surprise me nerds see this as forward movement.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto Bros are the vaguely defined boogeyman, scape goat, and hate magnet for a coordinated disinformation campagain against crypto .. Are you sure you want to associate your position with that kinda PR?

Don't try to stand up a strawman. The exchanges are manipulating the value of Bitcoin, which affects those not using exchanges' ability to trade at a 'proper' value.

The strawman here is dividebyzeros fictional people who are too dumb to use bitcoin but somehow smart enough to navigate the financial system.

Crytpo bros are a PR boogeyman.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#217
Much of the problem with crypto-skepticism is that basically every problem it raises is true.

The argument is effectively boiled down to “here are a bunch of people working on very hard problems. Hard problems are hard, and therefore crypto won’t work”.

If you were to replace the word crypto with “computers” or “space travel”, most folks here would push back, saying that “yes these are hard problems, but there’s a lot of people working on it, and there’s lots of different solutions in many different directions.” And that would be a perfectly reasonable counter.

Most pro-crypto and anti-crypto have attached their identity to liking or dislike crypto.

If you disagree, ask yourself if, upon meeting someone who likes crypto, your brain naturally likes or dislikes the person. If you see someone talk about crypto in a positive light on the internet, do you instinctively upvote or downvote them?

This identity makes it very hard to make rational predictions about crypto. It’s too easy to weigh the same evidence in favor of crypto if you like crypto, or against crypto if you don’t like crypto.

Since most folks on HN dislike crypto, you may want to ask “what evidence would cause me to think crypto would work? What evidence would cause me to think it was good? Say crypto worked in 20 years, what would now like?”

If, when you’re attempting to answer those questions, your brain instead starts to answer the opposite questions (ex: “here is why crypto can’t possibly work”), then you know you’ve been trapped by the soldier mindset, and are not thinking rationally.

If your mind draws a blank or thinks “there is no evidence that crypto will work”, then either you are living in a bubble, your brain refuses to see information counter to your prior, or you have to figure out what makes you more able to understand the situation.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#218

Hi Molly, great article. I was just thinking about the CAP theorem again a few days ago and the trilemma you describe here, interestingly, feels quite related. As for what I personally consider to be the heart of the problem, I believe proof of personship (or whatever a soul is) is an unsolvable problem in the most rigorous sense. This is one reason why we have government. The issue isn't that government exists, it's…

I agree that government proof-of-identity systems are actually pretty decent, and I think they could offer something really useful by making those services available as cryptographic proofs. In America, using a government-issued proof of identity over the internet amounts to sending someone my SSN, or a picture of my passport or drivers license. Obviously this sucks because they can now convincingly impersonate me on the internet.

If they also provided some kind of public-key database, any internet service could verify my identity without learning how to impersonate me. If I lose my private key (or it gets leaked), I can go to the DMV or whatever and have them revoke my old one and issue a new one, just like if I lose my physical license today.

EDIT: I know, Estonia/Iceland/whoever already do this. Not an original idea.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#219

The problem I have with blockchain enthusiasts, after talking with them about their philosophy, is that they seem to consider trust a bug, and believe that ideal world is achievable with straitjackets of technical solutions that eliminate trust. Trust is a feature, not a bug. If trust is violated by rogue agents, it is because they exist[0], not because trust itself is a folly. However, blockchain-adjacent initiative…

> Their core motivation to benefit at others’ expense is to me indicative of mental health issues, possibly caused by insecurity and upbringing trauma.

Could we avoid armchair diagnoses? For society to function we need to maintain the polite fiction that one's actions are determined solely by their will.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin institutions are objectively untrustworthy and most people involved in Bitcoin have no real choice but to rely on them. I trust, say, Citibank more than Bitfinex.

You dont need bitcoin exchanges.

Only if you want to lose all your assets when the taxman turns up for their cut.

They don’t take Bitcoin and in any sensible sovereign nation never will.

Post reply on HN