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Ask HN: How are you dealing with the M1/ARM migration?

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Re: Ask HN: How are you dealing with the M1/ARM migration?

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative theory: Apple doesn't offer an M1 server. Github doesn't offer an M1 build server because M1 servers don't exist.

AWS offers Mac M1 instances, using Mac Minis. It seems like Github could do it.

Mac Minis aren't servers though - they suck in terms of redundancy, density, form factor, "lights out" management. It's fascinating the effort made by some ( like AWS, Mac Stadium, Scaleway) to try to force Mac Minis and Pros to be server-ish.

And Apple's EULA makes them basically unusable as short term rented servers, there's a minimum of 24h which is ridiculous.

Re: Ask HN: How are you dealing with the M1/ARM migration?

#232
post #226

I still have trouble figuring out how Docker works on M1 (I don't have one and I'm not sure it it meets my demands, infinite loop). Can I just pull a random image and expect Rosetta to do its thing without worrying? I can understand that 90% will work without issues, but it's always the remaining 10% that will suck up all of your time.

By default with Docker Desktop it only runs arm64 images, which are already quite popular (due to Raspberry Pis, Graviton, etc.).

Re: Ask HN: How are you dealing with the M1/ARM migration?

#233
post #189
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not that far from the reality. It’s essentially like using a Linux with really good graphical UI, ecosystem/3rd party integrations that just works and fully supported stellar hardware. After all, macOS is certified Unix and Linux is Unix-like.

As a Linux user who has run a Mac daily for work before, I don't really feel this at all. To me, the core of the Linux experience consists mostly of things that are not part of macOS: - uniform, comprehensive, robust package management, including for the system software - GNU coreutils and related utilities (sed, grep, find, etc.) - good filesystems - 'root is root'; no policy or other bullshit restricting what root…

> - uniform, comprehensive, robust package management, including for the system software

macOS uses Software Update to manage system packages, and AppStore to manage that world, and for everything else, MacPorts (if you care about your system homebrew is not an option).

> - GNU coreutils and related utilities (sed, grep, find, etc.)

macOS has a userland... you seriously can't find /usr/bin/sed in macOS? Seriously?

> - good filesystems

uh, if you actually think ext4 is any good, then I guess you just don't care about massive data loss. wtLf??!?

> - 'root is root'; no policy or other bullshit restricting what root can do by default

Always good to have unrestricted access to root for all those necessary privilege escalations. Security policy just gets in the way. Who has time to activate this and authenticate that?

> - lots of featureful, performant terminal emulators (to the point that the DE default is almost always fine)

You do realize that every single beloved terminal emulator you use on Linux most likely also runs on macOS, right?

> - some choice w/r/t desktop experience

omg. You are not required to run quartz. You can run X11 if you really want, and you can even run gnome or xfce, any window manager you want in macOS. Oh, but what you mean is because you don't know how then it can't be done.

> - popular apps don't just entirely stop working between OS releases

Because you're not aware of Linux breaking applications between releases, I guess it doesn't happen, and because upgrading system software the moment it is released is the new, state of the art sysadmin philosophy.

> - pretty much everything is discoverable and configurable if you're determined

kind of an empty observation, because this is true of all things

Stick with Linux, please. The less you know, the better off everyone else is.

Re: Ask HN: How are you dealing with the M1/ARM migration?

#234
post #230
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not that far from the reality. It’s essentially like using a Linux with really good graphical UI, ecosystem/3rd party integrations that just works and fully supported stellar hardware. After all, macOS is certified Unix and Linux is Unix-like.

> really good graphical UI Honestly that's subjective. I preferred GNOME, but to each their own. There's too much flashiness for my taste, and some icons and UI just look like something for kids (big, bright, round). > ecosystem/3rd party integrations Eh. A big part of that ecosystem is paid for really basic features. The App Store requires an iCloud account to be used. That ecosystem also relies on various hacks to…

It's not that subjectıve actually. Apple does usability research and collects feedback and usage data all the time. It's not an artistic endeavour but a methodological study. The free and open source projects often lack in that or don't have it at all.

Some people can prefer other systems and that's alright.

Re: Ask HN: How are you dealing with the M1/ARM migration?

#235
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, homebrew can take care of the few of the complaints here. Not really. Homebrew doesn't manage the operating system (which I understand is a desirable kind of separation for some users), and it's also just not comparable to Linux package managers in its technical aspects. The result is that it's just not as reliable, predictable, fast, or complete as virtually any distro package managers on Linux. > By…

>The result is that it's just not as reliable, predictable, fast, or complete as virtually any distro package managers on Linux I disagree, for example pacman will happily break your system if you have any third party packages or don't use it exactly as prescribed. Not all Linux package managers are perfect or even that good.

> Not all Linux package managers are perfect or even that good.

Definitely. And the good ones are sometimes the most frustrating for their remaining imperfections! But when you compare them to package managemwmt efforts outside of Linux and free Unix distros, efforts like Homebrew or pip or NPM, there are typically lessons that Linux distro package managers have learned from each other that the others miss, to their detriment.

> for example pacman will happily break your system if you have any third party packages or don't use it exactly as prescribed.

If you care more about robustness than speed or simplicity, pacman is arguably the worst in its class. On a technical level it's still on a par with Homebrew or better, depending on what we're comparing. But it can be more painful to use in practice because of the actual role that the AUR plays in the Arch ecosystem. Arch devs' denialism about that has led to a permanent state of affairs where everyone uses the AUR and pacman ignores the dependencies of AUR packages every time it runs updates, i.e., perpetual breakage.

I'm not a fan of that design or the Arch 'blame the user for holding it wrong; after all we warned them this required manual attention' attitude. And there are better-engineered package managers available on macOS, too, like Nix and pkgsrc, too.

But the base system is still unpackaged (like in many Unix distros), and the package managers you end up needing for working on the OS are decidedly second class on the system and prone to being broken periodically by Apple. (If you follow along with Homebrew or Nixpkgs on GitHub, you can see the kinds of huge efforts they often have to go through when Apple releases a new macOS beta and it completely breaks things for them.) It's just too different to be summarized as a matter of 'like Linux but with a different GUI'.

Re: Ask HN: How are you dealing with the M1/ARM migration?

#236
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWS offers Mac M1 instances, using Mac Minis. It seems like Github could do it.

Mac Minis aren't servers though - they suck in terms of redundancy, density, form factor, "lights out" management. It's fascinating the effort made by some ( like AWS, Mac Stadium, Scaleway) to try to force Mac Minis and Pros to be server-ish. And Apple's EULA makes them basically unusable as short term rented servers, there's a minimum of 24h which is ridiculous .

True, but if they're "server enough" for AWS, I think that says something. The 24 hour thing is a problem though.

Re: Ask HN: How are you dealing with the M1/ARM migration?

#237

Oracle sucks. I mean in general, but they have also not released ARM instantclient or even an ARM version of Java. I think its crazy that I'm using Microsoft's version of ARM java. I'm also using Windows 11 ARM in Parallels, which does seamless emulation of Oracle instantclient / Java / PL/SQL Developer. So most of my workflow has not been interrupted. Still, just another excuse to move to a better database. Now all…

Java ARM (for linux) version has been around since Java 15 (came out September 2020), and for MacOS since Java 17 (September 2021) [0].

[0] https://jdk.java.net/archive/

And here is instanclient for ARM: https://www.oracle.com/database/technologies/instant-client/...

Re: Ask HN: How are you dealing with the M1/ARM migration?

#238
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Linux user who has run a Mac daily for work before, I don't really feel this at all. To me, the core of the Linux experience consists mostly of things that are not part of macOS: - uniform, comprehensive, robust package management, including for the system software - GNU coreutils and related utilities (sed, grep, find, etc.) - good filesystems - 'root is root'; no policy or other bullshit restricting what root…

Even those points can be argued around in various ways, so they're not even that clear-cut. > uniform, comprehensive, robust package management, including for the system software Every Linux distribution has its own package manager, so that somewhat fails on the 'uniform' point. Package management for system and apps being shared (comprehensive) is an arguable point as well, and 'robust' seems to not be the default o…

> Every Linux distribution has its own package manager, so that somewhat fails on the 'uniform' point.

No, what I mean is that on every given system, you can manage all software on the system with a single tool, whether it's an application or a system component. Everything shares an installation mechanism and an update process— uniform in that sense.

> 'robust' seems to not be the default on more traditional Linux distributions.

The traditional ones are not robust to things like pulling the power during package installation, but their behavior is predictable and they're capable of reliably doing the basics, which is something Linux users will painfully miss any time they're on macOS or Windows.

> The approach seen in for example Fedora Atomic matches the macOS approach a lot more, including rollback and consistency, but also splitting the system image, overlays, and user apps.

I think this is an approach that has a ton of value for many users, and that kind of separation is common among Unices. Using just one tool for everything has always been a Linux weirdness. I like it, but one of the consequences that sucks for casual users or newcomers is that you're effectively always managing the whole system; there's no such thing as 'just installing $APPLICATION', because all installations are interconnected through the global web of dependencies. It's kind of cool but it's also kind of a mess, and it leads to the possibility of accidentally uninstalling your desktop environment when you mash the yes button trying to install Steam.

I think the split system approach is good because it can end that type of problem, but I think having the base system still be modular and flexible is valuable. Fedora Silverblue is like this and IIRC FreeBSD is actually like this these days, since the base system has also been packaged. SteamOS is famously like this, as well, where Steam is essentially the package manager that sits atop the base system which is packaged but which you have to 'unlock'.

Upgrading the macOS base system is not atomic, though. I know because I once bricked a Mac Mini that I thought was stuck during an OS update by unplugging it. :)

A macOS à la carte where you maintained the separation between the base system and user packages but the base system was still parceled out into individual packages would be really cool. I'd be interested in playing with that for sure.

> > good filesystems > APFS seems 'better' than the ext* default seen on most Linux distributions, and has had less of a history of 'random corruption' than early btrfs.

Yeah, what I mean here is that because Linux is such a player in the datacenter, even desktop Linux users have choices of really excellent filesystems available.

APFS is basically just a backend for Time Machine. You can't even take persistent or named snapshots that you know won't be garbage collected later, never mind the performance of filesystems like ext4 and Xfs or the interesting features of a BTRFS or ZFS.

APFS doesn't even support transparent compression, either, which is just baffling to me on 2022.

Once the OpenZFS port for Mac matures, this situation could get a lot better, and that would be awesome.

> > pretty much everything is discoverable and configurable if you're determined

> Same goes for macOS and even Windows. Reverse engineering is a thing that can be done with sufficient determination, and in many legislations has exemptions for these kinds of use cases.

There's something really depressing to me about having to spend most of my time on a platform that's so actively hostile to me that getting simple behaviors I want is a matter of reverse engineering.

----

I think I pretty much agree with everything else :)

Re: Ask HN: How are you dealing with the M1/ARM migration?

#239
post #189
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not that far from the reality. It’s essentially like using a Linux with really good graphical UI, ecosystem/3rd party integrations that just works and fully supported stellar hardware. After all, macOS is certified Unix and Linux is Unix-like.

As a Linux user who has run a Mac daily for work before, I don't really feel this at all. To me, the core of the Linux experience consists mostly of things that are not part of macOS: - uniform, comprehensive, robust package management, including for the system software - GNU coreutils and related utilities (sed, grep, find, etc.) - good filesystems - 'root is root'; no policy or other bullshit restricting what root…

All other complaints aside, claiming Linux has it better when it comes to “featureful, performant terminal emulators” is outright laughable. The number one thing I miss on my home Linux workstation is a good terminal emulator. Nothing in Linux land comes close to the featurfulness of iTerm2, to the point where the vast majority of Linux emulators don’t even support ligatures! Add “fast” to that and you only have one option: Kitty. Which, guess what, also runs on macOS. iTerm is generally slower than kitty, but the trade off is completely worth it, especially when you consider features like tmux CC mode which makes working on a remote system almost as transparent and reliable as working on the local system.
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