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Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

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Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#201

Post by ebiester »

waqf wrote: post #199
chc wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your overall thrust, but just a point that bugs me sometimes: Your comment would be much stronger without the "male privilege" explanation. That kind of talk has the wrong effect on people who aren't well-versed in feminist literature and there's usually a less broad description for the specific case you're talking about. For example, it's easy to think of programmers as men because working programmers a…

I agree, the "privilege" expression is adversarial and will offend people you might want to get onto your side. Personally, I instinctively ignore people who use it because it makes me think they either aren't serious about having a coöperative dialogue, or are as tactless as the people they're denouncing. Incidentally, I've seen it around a lot recently. Is it new, or newly popularized?

I'm a white male. But a left handed male. I notice a pair of right handed scissors, or right handed kitchen tools, or a lack of left handed desks in a classroom whereas a right handed person would probably never notice. Why would it be controversial to point this out?

It's not like anyone is trying to be malevolent in this case; it's just something they would never notice. They have the privilege of not having to notice. Now, in day to day life, being left handed is pretty benign, all things considered, and I don't think a right handed person should have to apologize for being right handed, or for not noticing the issues for us southpaws, but neither should they be defensive when it's pointed out to them.

I think all most people are asking for is this: "It was noticed, it was corrected, we apologize, and we'll try and do better next time."

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#202

Post by chc »

ebiester wrote: post #200
chc wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your overall thrust, but just a point that bugs me sometimes: Your comment would be much stronger without the "male privilege" explanation. That kind of talk has the wrong effect on people who aren't well-versed in feminist literature and there's usually a less broad description for the specific case you're talking about. For example, it's easy to think of programmers as men because working programmers a…

But the point is that we're largely blind to it because we don't have to deal with it. The point isn't if it's intended to be sexist, or if it is that big of a deal in and of itself. It's a tiny pebble, one that most of us wouldn't notice in and of itself. It's as if most of us have shoes and we're walking over some gravel. Someone who was barefoot would notice every pebble a lot more. I think that's why mentioning m…

I'm not saying don't mention inequities; I'm saying don't frame them as "male privilege" — at least not if you aren't writing the introduction to a whole book on the topic, because just mentioning it without thoroughly establishing what you're talking about will just make most of your audience tune out. You want to know why?

Because the dread god Ki'urnac wills it so. Wait, you don't know about Ki'urnac? Oh, well then it's good I mentioned him, because now you'll now to follow his will so he doesn't torture you in the Dark Eternities.

More seriously: Most men don't feel particularly privileged. A lot of them feel downright oppressed (not because they're men, per se, but just because life is hard). If you suddenly tell them, "You're wrong, but you don't know it because you're so privileged," it's like bringing up Ki'urnac. They have roughly the same level of belief in the statements "Ki'urnac exists" and "I am privileged." Unless you're planning a lengthy proof of Ki'urnac, they're probably going to write you off and feel mildly offended at your pushiness. That's why I think it's better to point out the actual ways in which people are privileged, rather than just tell them they're privileged and thus they should distrust their own minds.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#203

Post by dspeyer »

chc wrote: post #189
Confusion wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it subtly suggests gender I don't think there is anything subtle about it and it's not a suggestion.

AFAIK, it is actually meant to contrast with the stereotypical nerdy programmer self-diagnosed with Asperger's — who would never refer to a coworker as "bro" — rather than to denote a "male programmer." The terminology is very unfortunate, though, especially if you're outside the culture it originated in. I think the idea they want to convey could be more inclusively expressed as "We believe in being happy and having…

The first instruction on the first google hit for brogrammer is:

> Polo, tight so the chicks can see how defined your muscles are

It's hard to see how this would apply to a straight woman.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#204

Post by jeffool »

roguecoder wrote: post #197
jeffool wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bro" has become a word used like "hey guys" in mixed company, or "dude", applied equally to men and women. It's cultural, and like many cultural things, is popularized from chan sites. Starting as mocking the fratguy and Jersey stereotypes, it's now a cultural mockery of itself, like hipsters who hate hipsters. My brother and cousins are increasingly "brotastic", with tough talk, and repeated high fives (followed by…

Calling everyone "you guys" is offensive; it suggests that being a dude is normal and everything else is deviations we can just ignore. I will believe that "dude" is gender-neutral when I can call the guys I work with "ladies" and have it be considered gender-neutral. 1) Yes, even if implicitly. It says "I expect people to conform to masculine norms; everyone else need not apply." Whether or not they specifically set…

I guess I attributed to "dude" what I see more people doing with "actor", an implication that changing the word itself (to dudette, or dudesse, I suppose) is more offensive than using a single term for a single idea that, itself, doesn't need to be gendered. Actually a quick Googling of "dude gender neutral" tells me dude's gender-neutral usage goes back to the 1970s, and has been written on some.

I certainly don't think women would want to be called "programmerettes" or "programmeresses" en masse. And I'm too afraid to Google those.

As to the points I was trying to make, my intent was to say that yes, I believe it absolutely would drive off more women than men by appealing to a culture that is male-dominant. But I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that it was done with the explicit intent of establishing a "no girls allowed" company. I do think those guys should've been more thoughtful about who they were appealing to, and I'm glad MattManser brought it to our attention; it's an interesting read. But I'm not as quick to call them sexist assholes. For all I know, they were going for a sense of cultural fraternity (that someone earlier in the thread excellently brought up as a word that, despite its roots, is a feeling we all typically aim to share.) Then again, that leads directly to my second point...

Being a part of that culture? That isn't a place I would want to work, either. But just because I find something untoward doesn't mean everyone would. That's what I mean when I said women get to decide what's offensive toward them, not men.

If men think something is offensive toward women, and women don't... Then I think it would be a very odd argument indeed. I think men can have an opinion on it, and I think most of us here probably agree it's at the very least tasteless, but matter like this, I would tend to defer to the party claiming offense. The question becomes what makes HER feel uncomfortable, and avoiding that.

It's something polite that could be done with anyone on any topic, but especially should be if the vast majority of a group finds it shockingly offensive.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#205

Post by cheald »

benwerd wrote: post #152
dgabriel wrote: post #90

Woman programmer here: I automatically assumed they were looking for college aged men. "Brogrammer," is not a unisex term, no matter how they try to spin it.

Male programmer in his thirties here: I automatically assumed they were looking for assholes.

That's about the score. "Bro$suffix" is generally perjorative for "college-age male douchebag".

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#206

Post by yaix »

bbwharris wrote: post #155

You can brogram with different sexes, do it all the time. Being PC all the time is exhausting. The females that I pair with would laugh at this term and not take offense to it. In fact by saying, "Let's brogram" would indicate the equality that I feel of that female with fellow male programmers. Lighten up and have a sense of humor once in a while. Life is supposed to be fun, not a myriad of social rules and regulati…

Fully agree. But in our lawyer run and lawyer trained society, most people don't see things this way anymore.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#207

Post by nametoremember »

roguecoder wrote: post #197
jeffool wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bro" has become a word used like "hey guys" in mixed company, or "dude", applied equally to men and women. It's cultural, and like many cultural things, is popularized from chan sites. Starting as mocking the fratguy and Jersey stereotypes, it's now a cultural mockery of itself, like hipsters who hate hipsters. My brother and cousins are increasingly "brotastic", with tough talk, and repeated high fives (followed by…

Calling everyone "you guys" is offensive; it suggests that being a dude is normal and everything else is deviations we can just ignore. I will believe that "dude" is gender-neutral when I can call the guys I work with "ladies" and have it be considered gender-neutral. 1) Yes, even if implicitly. It says "I expect people to conform to masculine norms; everyone else need not apply." Whether or not they specifically set…

I know females that say "guys" referring to both males and females.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#208

Post by waqf »

ebiester wrote: post #201
waqf wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, the "privilege" expression is adversarial and will offend people you might want to get onto your side. Personally, I instinctively ignore people who use it because it makes me think they either aren't serious about having a coöperative dialogue, or are as tactless as the people they're denouncing. Incidentally, I've seen it around a lot recently. Is it new, or newly popularized?

I'm a white male. But a left handed male. I notice a pair of right handed scissors, or right handed kitchen tools, or a lack of left handed desks in a classroom whereas a right handed person would probably never notice. Why would it be controversial to point this out? It's not like anyone is trying to be malevolent in this case; it's just something they would never notice. They have the privilege of not having to not…

We're talking past each other: the disagreement is not with anything you just said. I just want you to rephrase your perfectly good argument without the word "privilege", because although what you mean by it (which you have explained) is not offensive, calling people that word tends to rub them the wrong way based on their previous experience of it being used negatively/critically.

It's as if you couldn't see what's wrong with making the claim, "Niggers are overrepresented on Death Row". It's an objectively true statement, but you still need to change one of the words you used if you're serious about constructive debate.

I think chc in this thread is saying exactly the same thing as me.

Re: Ask HN: Is brogrammer a sexist term?

#210

Post by unabridged »

bro =/= male

being male doesnt make you a bro, females can be bros

if you don't understand what bro means then you cannot possibly understand the word brogrammer. if you do not understand the word brogrammer, then you are not in the right culture to be hired by this company.

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