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Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

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Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#181

Post by pas »

colordrops wrote: post #75
zaptrem wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a current senior at Cornell and I'm conflicted. > On Friday, the administration told students in an emailed statement "we have an expectation and responsibility to engage with viewpoints that we disagree with," but that "we must also respect that walkouts are a legitimate form of protest and an appropriate expression of disapproval." I like free speech as much as the next Hacker News user, but many of the actions…

Sorry but I'm disgusted with this thought process that has taken hold over the last several years. You decide the truth value of something and based on that you further decide that a topic is off limits. It's shockingly self-centered and leaves no room for the possiblity that you might be wrong about the matter, and that you are moving the goalposts for what is considered acceptable speech. The road to hell is paved…

The thought process that taken hold over the last several years... like the last 250?

The thought process that using various means to try to achieve human rights goals?

Oh well maybe you think the civil war was fought on a nice delightful afternoon between tea and cake, and folks shook hands after, slaves were freed and everyone went home, and the president recommend soldiers to go get some tan in the south for the photo op next year.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#182

Post by davorak »

colordrops wrote: post #179
davorak wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like mariusor gave you a statement, with no direct connection to a real group of people, that is almost tautologically true. > Supporting the persecution of a group of people because of their ethnicity (or whichever other criteria) is such a thing. Please tell me how I'm wrong about that. To reword a little bit, it is immoral to persecute(or support the act) a group for arbitrary and trivial detail(s). So if…

I don't agree with the characterization that there's no direct connection to a real group of people with this statement, as it would be a non sequitur at best, and an intentional misdirection at worst. I, and probably most people reading this thread, are under the impression that we are talking about the Uyghurs of Xinjiang considering the topic of the post, and it's kind of absurd to assume otherwise.

It is a common technique, in my experience, to generalize parts of an argument to make it easier to find a shared philosophy or principle. Then Shared understanding can cooperatively be built on the common ground formed by the shared philosophy or principle.

mariusor generalized their argument, tried to separate his argument form any specific group, with:

> I am arguing that someone that supports an objectively immoral act is objectively immoral and even though they might be free to espouse that point of view, any private individual or organization is equally free in shunning them.

After common ground is found the next step is to apply the shared understanding or philosophy to the specifics of the issue at hand. This often allows both parties to separate themselves from their biases, at least some, and think more clearly.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#183

Post by momofarm »

looks like educated in west world doesn't make these folks more........democated?

maybe one day chinese people will be like Uyghur people, hated by most of the world, force to leave their country, seeking a land to live, and this DID happens before.

(Let's remind to people don't know history of china, lots of regime in mainland china are foreigner from outside, ex: 唐(dang), 元(yuan), 清(ching), and its close to be fully occupied by Japan in last centry. If not Japanese gov decided to hit Pearl Harbour, there will be no CCP dominated in mainland China now, and we may speak Japanese and rest of mainland China will be like a giant colony of Japan)

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#184

Post by colordrops »

yorwba wrote: post #139
colordrops wrote: post #84

It really bothers me how people foam at the mouth about this when there is far more direct evidence of much worse abuses in Israel/Palestine than Xinjiang, but somehow Xinjiang is the next holocaust and China is Nazi Germany. CIA and State Department propaganda at work.

In response to your other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31691085 claiming that "No concrete evidence has ever been released that there is mass incarceration in Xinjiang." https://web.archive.org/web/20180921114505/http://www.xj.jcy... > 五年来，全区检察机关共批准逮捕各类刑事犯罪嫌疑人330918人 https://web.archive.org/web/20210811151913/https://www.spp.g... > 2013年至2017年，全国检察机关共批捕各类刑事犯罪嫌疑人453.1万人 Of 4.5 million arrests in all of…

Can't edit my original comment, but I looked it up. Out of 10 million arrests in the US, 2.5 million are black, or 25%, which is double their population. The US also has both the highest prison population in total, and per capita. You better be calling this a genocide of blacks if you aren't a total hypocrite.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#185

Post by dorgo »

ls15 wrote: post #112
nhinck2 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have failed to understand the paradox.

I just don't think it applies to free speech. And I don't interpret free speech as I can say whatever I want whenever I want , but I am free to express my opinion . This does not include freedom to attack other people's freedom.

So, "I think other people should not be free" is not covered by free speech?

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#186

Post by lenkite »

mariusor wrote: post #148
colordrops wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong about that because it's not possible to know if something is true with certainty. Hearing about things in the news and social media doesn't make it true. See: Iraq WMD.

I am not arguing about something that is true or not. I am arguing that someone that supports an objectively immoral act is objectively immoral and even though they might be free to espouse that point of view, any private individual or organization is equally free in shunning them.

Moral arguments are used by US state propaganda ALL THE TIME to get rid of the bad guys. I no longer trust 'objectively moral' arguments now. Folks who believe such are generally in the camp of the young, the brainwashed or the true 'change' fanatics who don't care about body count in pursuit of beliefs.

Saddam is a bad guy with WMD - let's get rid of him with shock&awe. Oops, we lied to the world and caused 200k deaths, but we are really moral!

Gaddafi is a bad guy who's oppressing the Arab Spring revolution (and threatening the USD). Let's get him with air-strikes and 'freedom-fighters'. Oops Libya fell-apart from a state that had guaranteed healthcare and education to a mess of conflicting factions and a multi-million casualty count. But hey - we are the good guys doing war for 'morality' and freedom. "We came, we saw, he died!"- Hillary Clinton.

Assad is a bad guy who's killing rebels (and siding with bad Russia). Let's get rid of him by giving his opponents (Obama's moderate rebels) infinite ammo, arms and armour. So what if they chained and raped women, united and transmogrified into the ISIS and invaded Iraq - we get another opportunity to bomb the bad guys!

All these 'moral American arguments' are responsible for multi-million deaths and casualties in the world - but doing it for morality makes it OK.

It starts with your campus culture, then those same folks become members of the US state department and want to change the world by through cancelling nation states or enacting sanctions that cause economic collapse and famine.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#187

Post by colordrops »

pas wrote: post #181
colordrops wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but I'm disgusted with this thought process that has taken hold over the last several years. You decide the truth value of something and based on that you further decide that a topic is off limits. It's shockingly self-centered and leaves no room for the possiblity that you might be wrong about the matter, and that you are moving the goalposts for what is considered acceptable speech. The road to hell is paved…

The thought process that taken hold over the last several years... like the last 250? The thought process that using various means to try to achieve human rights goals? Oh well maybe you think the civil war was fought on a nice delightful afternoon between tea and cake, and folks shook hands after, slaves were freed and everyone went home, and the president recommend soldiers to go get some tan in the south for the p…

Yes, keeping slaves and saying words you don't like are equivalent crimes worthy of warfare.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#188

Post by dirtyid »

logicchains wrote: post #128
dirtyid wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a lot simpler than that. PRC's XJ security architecture is publically about counter terrorism and deradicalization through forced reeducation (with mass interment) and poverty alleviation. While forced sterilzation for women with 3+ kids is XJ catching up to family planning policies with rest of PRC. Years of consistent Uyghur terrorist attacks stopped in exchange for repressing minority consisting 0.02% of popu…

>They don't mean for crimes they personally did not commit, but alleged "genocide" that the global political UN community majority states PRC did not commit. The "majority" of UN are poor countries on China's payroll; facts are not a matter of majority opinion. >And in fact the opposite position is true, to them PRC has found a relatively "humane" method of eliminating radical terrorism versus US bombing the shit out…

Facts are majority of poor country own more to west cumulative and have greater strategic support. Including near unanimous ME who depends on US security architecture. It costs nothing to defect from PRC but they still CHOOSE to endorse antiterrorisn because that's the most relevant lens. CCP money is stupid cope argument to deny countries with their own agency, again reflected in global south not giving a fuck about RU. They see through about liberal order propaganda. Most countries are much more suborn to US/west pressure but still collectively endorse PRC position becauce the leadership wants what PRC is selling, a securitization system that eliminates radicalism.

>more humane than indiscriminate bombin

Of course. In 50 years Iraq will likely still be a secretarian shithole that haven't fully recovered from US destruction. Meanwhile in the the past 7 years of XJ securitization alone, XJ infra has improved dramatically, and within a generation the kids will be properly sinicized to particpate in broader PRC society/economy. Of course there's still going to be Uyghurs in PRC in 50 years, for the sinmple reason that reducing recognized ethnics groups from 56 to 55 to look bad. They'll certainly have a relatively better existence than indigenous peoples in North America post cultural genocide.

>rich Hanzu in Shanghai

Meanwhile majority of PRC not hard locked down thinks it's was overdue for shanghai to get a taste of the XJ medicine for trying to deviate from zero covid in the first place. Did we forget Wuhan bitterness subsided in relatively short time when they realized how fucked the rest of world handled covid. Right now that's seeing the shitshow of living with covid on TW with their "fancy" mRNA vax.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#189

Post by dirtyid »

Gnob wrote: post #153
dirtyid wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a lot simpler than that. PRC's XJ security architecture is publically about counter terrorism and deradicalization through forced reeducation (with mass interment) and poverty alleviation. While forced sterilzation for women with 3+ kids is XJ catching up to family planning policies with rest of PRC. Years of consistent Uyghur terrorist attacks stopped in exchange for repressing minority consisting 0.02% of popu…

It's really as simple as, they can go back to China if they want to disrespect the hosting culture with no proof or evidence to support their claims, just taunt and probably mob or bully others who've been probably through horrors caused by the very good CCP, then play the victim card. If the USA did something wrong doesn't mean you can do something less wrong than the USA and get away with it. it's exactly like sayi…

>they can go back to China

Why? PRC nationalist paid ~50K for the right to play campus idpol. US free to reduce enrollment of PRC students or academic exchanges. They're already shutting down Confucius Institutes. But if US wants to braindrain PRC talent, they're going to have to deal with the diasphora drama (like they do every other beefing groups), because they lost the soft power to convince PRC students CCP bad.

>something less wrong

Well within CCP framework, Sinicizing XJ is not so much less wrong as more right. It's not contextualized in western "human rights" preoccupation with negative rights, but ensuring positive rights by integrating restive minority into broader economic development so they wouldn't have to cling to destructive religious impulses. Enter reducation, poverty alleviation. Plus entire stopping terrorism thing. That's not even about morality, a government with state capacity to stop such things, will. Political suicide / lose legitimacy otherwise.

>respect

Some ideological chasms are so broad there's really no compromise or respect. You can't "respect" someone alleging your country is committing genocide when you firmly believe it's not. Nor will PRC students get the forum to host "genocide denial" debates on campus. In lieu of that, the response is to react to people whose position abursdly antithetically to theirs with incivility. Groups on campus and in broader society go full stupid over divisive idpol issues all the time, this is simply one that seperates PRC nationalists students with almost everyone else. Like how are they suppose to react when they paid 50k to goto a school that entertains, in their perspective, yellow peril. US/PRC drama means this issue gets much much traction vs other diasphora campus politics, even in places like HN. Chinese students have right to gelopolitical idpol over dumb shit.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#190

Post by whimsicalism »

xdennis wrote: post #158
whimsicalism wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing what is happening in Xinjiang to the Holocaust is Holocaust trivialization. They are not engaging in the organized murder of 11 million people. Not even close. Wish these gross comparisons for obvious political reasons (because we feel a rivalry with China) would end.

GP did not mention the Holocaust. You did! He metioned the Nazis, and the Nazis did not start with the Holocaust. They started with smaller antisemitic policies and ended with the Holocaust. China hasn't executed millions of Uyghurs yet, but there are no signs of them relaxing the persecutions so it could get a lot worse.

Yeah, how silly of me to think that a reference to "history repeating itself" (commonly used in reference to the Holocaust) and the Nazis, would refer to their most notorious and infamous action.

I'm sure they were referring to the Nazi's road construction initiatives.

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