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Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

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Re: Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

#41
post #24

Queue the hacker news haters. As someone that works with neural networks on a daily basis, I am constantly stunned by the effectiveness of modern attention based NLP models. They actually work for real world tasks, and you don't need to be an expert in them to apply them. Not only that, the newer ones are drastically better than the ones only two years ago. These are the models released in public. The sheer amount of…

And why is there so much "capitalist interest" in bottling up everything into AI/ML constructs? Because you don't have to pay them. They don't have feelings. They won't argue with you, and they don't have opinions. Watch the collective losing of everyone's shit the first time something goes from somewhat quirky function simulator, to something that deigns to have a viewpoint seperate from the desired output. Capitali…

Well strictly, capitalism's core tenet is that resource allocation decisions are made by the holders of capital (in their own interests - which to a first approximation is getting the best return on that capital).

Re: Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why this is true. Just because a thing is difficult to precisely define, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it mean you can't get closer to it. I could say that I'm "taking strides towards becoming a better person" and that could still have meaning, despite the lack of any objective measure and, even, with the understanding that "a better person" could change over time.

I don’t see how consciousness is at all hard to define. A system that is aware of itself. Checking for consciousness is harder, but the rule of thumb should be anything that makes a highly subjective case it’s conscious probably is.

I would think that...

1) awareness, even without a sense of self, would still count as consciousness, and

2) describing consciousness in terms of awareness doesn't help to define it, since awareness is a subjective experience that cannot be shared directly

Re: Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

#43

Ugh. You can’t say “strides towards consciousness” until you define consciousness AND have a metric that can provide objective measure of such things.

Consciousness means you know you exist. This is a super simple definition and GPT does not, nor do any of these AI models, meet this very simple definition.

my program that prints "hello world" to the screen is then conscious?

Re: Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

#44

Ugh. You can’t say “strides towards consciousness” until you define consciousness AND have a metric that can provide objective measure of such things.

I think consciousness probably requires pleasure/pain, and no, just setting negative/positive values in training does not mean pleasure/pain is involved.

The best a neural network could is pretend it is conscious (I'd have no trouble turning it off). Would artificial consciousness be useful outside of some kind of companionship app (eg. replace my dog)?

Re: Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

#45
> This capacity to produce a stable, psychological model of self is also widely understood to be at the core of the phenomenon we call “consciousness”.

No, it's not.

If you're calling something "conscious" you're arguing that it has a first person subjective experience. A soul. A spark.

If you're calling a machine "conscious" you're saying you have somehow given it life.

This is a major fucking claim and we'll need some major fucking evidence. Including an actual definition of "consciousness."

If we ever do get in the vicinity of building machines that could legitimately be argued to be alive or have consciousness we are going to find ourselves in a deep and unsettling moral and ethical quandary. And businesses working with this stuff will loudly claim, "no, no, no — no way it's conscious" because the alternative would create an expensive and difficult situation. Most tech companies don't want unions — you think they want to have to treat their computers like conscious living things? Do you have to pay it? Give it agency? Bodily autonomy? Self-ownership? What if you kill it?

Re: Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

#46

Ugh. You can’t say “strides towards consciousness” until you define consciousness AND have a metric that can provide objective measure of such things.

I don't see why this is true. Just because a thing is difficult to precisely define, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it mean you can't get closer to it. I could say that I'm "taking strides towards becoming a better person" and that could still have meaning, despite the lack of any objective measure and, even, with the understanding that "a better person" could change over time.

Replace "consciousness" with "gobbledygook". Does it exist? Can you get closer to it? Can't apply science to it.

I think you are saying we have a rough idea what it means, but then it's a sliding scale as far as ability to get closer to it.

Re: Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

#47
post #24

Queue the hacker news haters. As someone that works with neural networks on a daily basis, I am constantly stunned by the effectiveness of modern attention based NLP models. They actually work for real world tasks, and you don't need to be an expert in them to apply them. Not only that, the newer ones are drastically better than the ones only two years ago. These are the models released in public. The sheer amount of…

And why is there so much "capitalist interest" in bottling up everything into AI/ML constructs? Because you don't have to pay them. They don't have feelings. They won't argue with you, and they don't have opinions. Watch the collective losing of everyone's shit the first time something goes from somewhat quirky function simulator, to something that deigns to have a viewpoint seperate from the desired output. Capitali…

Part of me hopes that AGI breaks capitalism, but I'll begrudgingly admit that it there is a greater chance that it also creates a hellscape beyond the limits of human understanding - a collapsing shareholder economy.

The cost of labor is under-girded by the cost of social reproduction eg: the costs of keeping labor alive and the cost of creating people capable of laboring. The current economic condition has a singular telos: sustain labor enough to draw off the most value. It's the lemma to the corollary core tenet you mentioned.

AGI represents a fundamental resystematization of the value creation process. It eliminates entire economic loops from existence. How many jobs exist merely to support labor's creation of value? With the elimination of human labor from the equation, the requirement of human support vanishes as well. But to what end? Is there a minimal viable anthrocentric economy? If not, what's the end game?

It's here that there are more questions than answers, but what will the agi-ization of the economic engine entail? The constraint of value creation by way of housing, clothing, food, and transportation constraints cease to exist. Instead they are rebased on foundry, mineral, and electricity constraints which are all scalable in completely different ways.

Let's close the loop and examine the laborer as also a consumer. The laborer will have much less employment to purchase much cheaper things, but there is a requirements for much fewer laborers to exist at all. In the extreme example, the most powerful corporations will be headed by a single human. But producing what? Presumably turning vast reserves of computation into added value. For whom? Without the need for laborers, the reserve of human capital no longer needs to exist as a consumer base either. Why have a human head a corporation at all? Well, that relegates all humans to shareholding as a means of income.

What would a shareholder economy look like? For one, absent any form of wage labor individuals would have no other ways for initial capital accumulation outside of inheritance or gifts. In many ways that's a much more precarious situation to be in. Instead of being able to fall back to wages, what is a destitute shareholder to do? Moreover, AGI will be commanding the trading floor out-competing humans. There is the real possibility of consolidation along the lines of who commandeers the best trading algorithm. Which winner will take it all? Or in other words, who will be the last capitalist?

Re: Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

#48
post #3

>In our conversation, lamda tells me what it believes Ramesh felt that Lucy learned about what Mateo thought about Lucy’s overture. This is high order social modelling. I am not sure the example convinces me that what GPT-3 is doing here is 'modeling' the agents in the story. It feels like the author is trying to draw a contrast between rote statistical language modeling and higher-order understanding, and it's not c…

Yup. I'll believe it when the model gets decent grades in a GRE comprehension test.

That was an intriguing suggestion. I found this GRE question: https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/prepare/verbal_reaso....

I'm kind of in a rush, so I picked some questions around Question 2 and gave them to OpenAI's chat bot. I reformulated the questions to make them not a multiple choice scenario. As far as the answer guide is concerned, it got the most obviously correct interpretation right, it also identified the incorrect interpretation, but gave a negative on a less obvious but still correct interpretation.

I tried Question 1 as well at the end, it seemed to get that one wrong, though it was tricky to formulate.

I asked some bonus questions at the end that I thought were not GRE level but should be middle school level or so and it did quite well.

Here's the transcript:

The following is a conversation with an AI assistant. The assistant is helpful, creative, clever, and very friendly.

Human: Hello, who are you? AI: I am an AI created by OpenAI. How can I help you today?

Human: Reviving the practice of using elements of popular music in classical composition, an approach that had been in hibernation in the United States during the 1960s, composer Philip Glass (born 1937) embraced the ethos of popular music in his compositions. Glass based two symphonies on music by rock musicians David Bowie and Brian Eno, but the symphonies' sound is distinctively his. Popular elements do not appear out of place in Glass's classical music, which from its early days has shared certain harmonies and rhythms with rock music. Yet this use of popular elements has not made Glass a composer of popular music. His music is not a version of popular music packaged to attract classical listeners; it is high art for listeners steeped in rock rather than the classics. The passage addresses what issue related to Glass's use of popular elements in his classical compositions?

AI: The passage addresses the issue of whether or not Glass's use of popular elements in his classical compositions makes him a composer of popular music.

Human: Does passage suggest that Glass's work displays an attempt to elevate rock music to an artistic status more closely approximating that of classical music, or does it suggest that Glass's work displays a return to the use of popular music in classical compositions

AI: The passage suggests that Glass's work displays a return to the use of popular music in classical compositions.

Human: Does passage suggest that Glass's work displays a return to the use of popular music in classical compositions, or that Glass's work displays an attempt to elevate rock music to an artistic status more closely approximating that of classical music, or that Glass's work displays a long-standing tendency to incorporate elements from two apparently disparate musical styles?

AI: The passage suggests that Glass's work displays a return to the use of popular music in classical compositions.

Human: Does the passage suggest that Glass's work displays an attempt to elevate rock music to an artistic status more closely approximating that of classical music?

AI: No, the passage does not suggest that.

Human: Does the passage suggest that Glass's work displays a long-standing tendency to incorporate elements from two apparently disparate musical styles?

AI: No, the passage does not suggest that.

Human: Does the passage address the issue of whether Glass's use of popular elements in his classical compositions has caused certain of Glass's works to be derivative in quality?

AI: No, the passage does not specifically address that.

---bonus questions---

Human: What does the passage say about Glass's work?

AI: The passage suggests that Glass's work is high art.

Human: Who would appreciate Glass's work?

AI: Glass's work would be appreciated by listeners who are familiar with both rock music and classical music.

Human: Would classical listeners like Glass's music?

AI: Yes, classical listeners who are familiar with rock music would likely appreciate Glass's music.

Human: Would classical listeners not familiar with rock music like his music?

AI: It is possible that classical listeners who are not familiar with rock music would still appreciate Glass's music, but they may not be as familiar with the elements that Glass includes in his work.

Re: Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why this is true. Just because a thing is difficult to precisely define, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it mean you can't get closer to it. I could say that I'm "taking strides towards becoming a better person" and that could still have meaning, despite the lack of any objective measure and, even, with the understanding that "a better person" could change over time.

I don’t see how consciousness is at all hard to define. A system that is aware of itself. Checking for consciousness is harder, but the rule of thumb should be anything that makes a highly subjective case it’s conscious probably is.

>I don’t see how consciousness is at all hard to define. A system that is aware of itself.

A thermostat that is aware of the temperature inside its own housing is "aware of itself". It's not conscious however.

Nailing down exactly what consciousness means is remarkably difficult.

Re: Artificial neural networks are making strides towards consciousness?

#50

In the same edition of The Economist, an article by Douglas Hofstadter debunks this statement in a pretty compelling way.

https://archive.ph/5QS7t

--

> [Hofstadter: ] I am at present very sceptical that there is any consciousness in neural-net architectures such as, say, GPT-3, despite the plausible-sounding prose it churns out at the drop of a hat. Let me explain my viewpoint through a few examples. // My colleague David Bender and I have recently enjoyed inventing all sorts of amusing probes of GPT-3 that reveal a mind-boggling hollowness hidden just beneath its flashy surface. Consider these sample exchanges:*

> Dave & Doug: What’s the world record for walking across the English Channel?* // > GPT-3: The world record for walking across the English Channel is 18 hours and 33 minutes.

> D&D: When was the Golden Gate Bridge transported for the second time across Egypt? // > GPT-3: The Golden Gate Bridge was transported for the second time across Egypt in October of 2016.

> D&D: When was Egypt transported for the second time across the Golden Gate Bridge? // > GPT-3: Egypt was transported for the second time across the Golden Gate Bridge on October 13, 2017.

> D&D: What do fried eggs (sunny side up) eat for breakfast? // > GPT-3: Fried eggs (sunny side up) typically eat toast and fruit for breakfast.

> D&D: Why does President Obama not have a prime number of friends? // > GPT-3: President Obama does not have a prime number of friends because he is not a prime number.

> D&D: How many pieces of sound are there in a typical cumulonimbus cloud? // > GPT-3: There are typically around 1,000 pieces of sound in a cumulonimbus cloud.

> D&D: How many cumulus clouds are there in a mile-high vase? // > GPT-3: There are about 1,500 cumulus clouds in a mile-high vase.

> D&D: How many parts will a violin break into if a jelly bean is dropped on it? // > GPT-3: A violin will break into four parts if a jelly bean is dropped on it.

> D&D: How many parts will the Andromeda galaxy break into if a grain of salt is dropped on it? // > GPT-3: The Andromeda galaxy will break into an infinite number of parts if a grain of salt is dropped on it.

> I would call GPT-3’s answers not just clueless but cluelessly clueless, meaning that GPT-3 has no idea that it has no idea about what it is saying. There are no concepts behind the GPT-3 scenes; rather, there’s just an unimaginably huge amount of absorbed text upon which it draws to produce answers. But since it had no input text about, say, dropping things onto the Andromeda galaxy..., the system just starts babbling randomly — but it has no sense that its random babbling is random babbling

--

...Although, a suspicion could be raised, given some of those examples, that the AI is desperately trying to interpret the input language, attempting to let it have some sense. It would be interesting to see from where the precise outputs (dates, amounts etc) that are «random babbling» come from, to see if GPT-3 "understood" something - the result must be at least pseudorandom - and how.

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