Live data from Hacker News

In defense of cryptocurrency

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

511–520 of 578 posts

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, isn't a bank an escrow agent? As in, historically it was a banks jobs to escrow your money. Then to act as an escrow agent for transactions/etc.

At least for buying a house no. The bank is not the escrow. The escrow is a separate entity that is used by both parties. Before the transaction they setup the rules of the transaction (steps and what ifs) and once the transaction starts escrow just follow those rules. The key thing is that escrow receives a fee and after that they have no skin in the game. So in a sense, the escrow is sort of like a smart contract o…

The way I would put it is, escrow is a workaround for the property system's inability to support smartcontract-like functionality. Because you can't have property conditionally transfer on certain triggers, you have to give it to a trusted escrow to actually execute the appropriate transfers, conditional on those triggers.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#512
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't know how easements work. So, you need to sign a reciprocity agreement with the road owner before they let you use their road for free? What prevents road owners from charging extortionate fees to people who don't own roads themselves?

The easements stay with the land. A land purchaser who uses a competent title search firm will find these easements filed many years ago with county clerk and recorder. Literally it gets set up once. The easements are reciprocal to everyone else in the town. An interesting thing with this is that if a giant company wants to drive around, take pictures of everything, and then monetize those pictures (G's street view),…

So the roads are privately-owned and the owners can charge road users anything they want. Such a system is only in the interest of the road owners, since they have monopoly power. Everybody else loses.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#513

Most of Green's article goes through, except for the answer to the 'climate change' objection (Objection 1). Which is, of course, the most important, and without it, the article as a whole also fails to convince. The problem is in this passage (mine the emphasis): > But the question we should be asking is not whether to be angry about the power consumption of proof-of-work mining. We should be trying to figure out th…

> What is a "good outcome?" A good outcome for whom? A great outcome for most species, and most h.sapiens, would be an outright ban, because of the risk spread. This only logically follows if literally all cryptocurrencies are proof-of-work (let alone proof-of-work using a hashing algorithm as energy-intensive as SHA256). This is patently false, and therefore the assertion that an outright ban on the very concept of…

> This only logically follows if literally all cryptocurrencies are proof-of-work (let alone proof-of-work using a hashing algorithm as energy-intensive as SHA256). This is patently false

Against this, I argue:

- easier/cheaper hashing actually doesn't work -- the yield curve in bitcoin mining is there for a reason, and without it, I doubt PoW would fly.

> ...and therefore the assertion that an outright ban on the very concept of a cryptocurrency is somehow a net benefit to global society requires more of a supporting argument than "Bitcoin exists and is currently dominant".

Bitcoin is an investment, because it's terrible for small, frequent transactions. (Both in UX and eco terms.) Reductio ad absurdum: If it doesn't remain dominant, then it has no use case, as it's a lousy investment instrument. If the above goes throw for bitcoin, then, a fortirori, the same reductio can also apply to any other PoW coin.

And don't get me started on PoS -- it's literally just an MLM you can buy into. A system for centralizing wealth in the hands of whoever already has it.

> Right, and that totally eliminated (or hell, at least even significantly curtailed) copyright infringement in those jurisdictions, right? If you sincerely believe that, then I've got an NFT of Ecuador to sell you.

It did, though? I remember the nineties well -- relatives would go to China and come back with armfuls of factory-pressed CDs and DVDs. Anything you wanted. Clean and new-in-box. That went away because of IP protection baked into trade agreements. And before you say 'BitTorrent', please remember, the analogy is _factory_ piracy -- because, like nineties piracy, Bitcoin requires mining rigs, and these are large, physical assets, like factories, and this is unlikely to change. What happened to IP after Napster is another thing, and does not invalidate the analogy. A similar virtualization/p2p move is unlikely to work for mining. (But I could always be wrong about this -- I'm open to persuasion, if you can paint me a word-picture of what competitive distributed mining would look like, other than NK Monero malware.)

> By your metric, banning only proof-of-work cryptocurrencies would be more than sufficient, assuming that such a ban could be enforced...

It's not hard -- a helicopter and a FLIR cam would work, as well as cooperation from the energy provider. Choke off the supply of mining, and wait for this to in turn cause transactions to become unwieldy.

> The cat's out of Pandora's box.

Shoot it, then.

> You can't "uninvent" peer-to-peer networking, and you can't "uninvent" decentralized ledgers.

Yes, but you can ban the sale of various things. Laws are possible things.

> Nation-states can impose whatever bans they want; unless they're willing to pull a PRC or DPRK and start committing rampant privacy violations for censorship reasons, those bans are toothless.

Expand/explain. I do not understand the point you attempt to make.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#514
post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market values aren't generally quantifiable though. Two houses on the exact same street might be valued slightly differently because one has some original features, or one has historic significance. Unless your decentralised oracle factors in all or the unique aspects of an area and a property, it's not an accurate representation of the value, and as I said before market valuation isn't something that dictates a purc…

Let me tell you something obvious. The credit system is doomed to fail, and it is not working. This blockchain thingy, defi, NFTs, now we might have a chance to build a better financial system. And yes, those two houses may be valued differently, but trust me, Some of the smart-ass people I know are working in crypto like there is no tomorrow. I'm sure we will solve this minor issue on the way.

>Now we might have a chance to build a better financial system.

Not with blockchains we don't. They're also doomed to fail, and not working. A system where your money loses 25% of its value in a day its completely unusable for a mortgage. Saying "I'm sure the problem will be solved" doesn't mean anything, you could say the same thing about a credit system.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many real world systems are "nearly trustless". Of course you still need some sort of court system if someone decides to break bad. But in the 99%+ of times you're in the happy path, economic transactions occur based on autonomous rules encoded in software. The analogy I like to use is what's harder to buy a $1 million house or $1 million of Microsoft stock? The former process takes weeks, and dozens of man hours fro…

Reduction of complexity somehow yields mobility and fractionalization of a complex physical asset? Why is this a good thing when you skip all the protection, nearly 500 years of property law and understanding all so you can digitize something into meaningless bits? Replace NFT with deed, and what you think we can’t execute the transfer quick enough? No we can but we don’t because, we want to title search, violation s…

The "quiet part" that crypto builders won't say loudly about this is that they aren't trying to solve technical problems with real estate transactions. They're trying to make it so you can have real estate transactions with the authority being based on consensus of an unelected and unaccountable group of programmers/miners/validators running a blockchain, instead of the authority of a local government. The "problem" they have is really political in nature, not technical. At least, I cannot see any other reason why they would care about this when there seems to be even less interest in trying to deploy permissioned blockchains operated by governments.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#516
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allowing any two willing parties to transact directly And what happens if one of the parties is not willing? If someone's e-wallet gets broken into and funds are transferred? How does any current system handle that situation? A lot of folks consider irreversibility a feature, when there's a strong case to be made that it is a bug.

The system does not handle it. If that is a problem for you, then cryptocurrencies are not for you. In a way it's like cash. If your wallet is stolen, there is no easy way to get your money back.

>then cryptocurrencies are not for you.

What this means to me is that cryptocurrencies are not for anybody. We don't have to create digital systems with the limitations of cash. We haven't had to do that for decades. Now there's a push to go back to the time before that, for (in general) no discernible reason besides people gambling on the price.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#517
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But for houses, you could use an NFT to represent digital ownership of the underlying physical asset.

Yeah, but you'd accomplish nothing. Because the only way a registry could be meaningful in determining ownership, is if the government that protects your property rights considers the registration valid. And in that case, you have to trust the government which means a trust-based registry is far more simple and efficient. Could still be blockchain based though, with proof-of-authority. Could be nice to see a ledger s…

The trust calculus is different though. You still need to trust the legal framework in your jurisdiction honours the blockchain's authority over ownership.

But you can at least not need to trust the registry's "database" of who owns what.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But for houses, you could use an NFT to represent digital ownership of the underlying physical asset.

The problem is the very definition of "the underlying physical asset".

The state would have to legislatively enact the fact the their land registry database is now an NFT based blockchain.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Write-once physical storage?

I'm sure it's theoretically possible to write a database that only allows reads/inserts and that runs off a CD-R burner, but it's weird that I haven't seen that in the wild. Seems like something that should be doable with SQLite's VFS support (and in fact I'm pretty sure the existing demo VFS for read-only support gets you most of the way there). In any case, "write-once" media can still be rewritten; the same lasers…

I guess I should have specified that I was being a bit tongue in cheek.

I do believe Write-Once was actually a thing with the banking mainframe I was acquainted with in my youth. It wasn't a CD-R thing, it was just an IBM thing which enforced write-only at the BIOS/Hardware level. Honestly, I'm not sure, I was young and impressionable :D. IOW, I might have been misled.

Anyway... All you need is logically write-once with proper signing, audits, etc. and you'll be just as close to unforgeable, etc. etc. as reality demands.

Heck, even journald on Linux provides unforgeable log entries. It is vulnerable to a destruction attack, so whatevs. Everything is. Even a blockchain -- witness the rugpulls.

> by which point you've reinvented most of what constitutes a blockchain anyway.

I love that.

Anyway, I'm here to dissuade you. Do whatever you want. Just be aware of the potential consequences.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Owning crypto != actually using it. How do you use bonds? in January, 10 trillion of debt wolrdwide was negative yield in nominal terms. in real terms - a whole lot more. Holding assets IS use. that's the root of your misunderstanding. For some reason everyone here is fixated on cheap payments. That's not what it's about.

I'll give you credit, deflecting to bonds is a new one! I'll quote myself: "It's really interesting that whenever I bring up blockchain explorers and the fact that blockchain has the most transparent and reliable adoption metrics ever no one takes me up on an analysis of the data and deflects to virtually anything else instead." Again, trading on crypto exchanges has nothing to do with the technology or use of a bloc…

Bonds/digital gold/reserve currency angle isn’t new, I certainly didn’t invent it. You just haven’t spoken to very many people!

Notice my comment did not include “trading”.

Specifically only holding. Only demand to hold an asset for long durations gives it value long term. Gold and bonds are the perfect instances of this that most are familiar with.

Bitcoin is an experiment in bootstrapping a new money from scratch.

Before it can serve as a decent medium of exchange, it needs to first prove it can hold value first, as a store of value.

Otherwise, how can you send value with it, if it can’t even store it value? It’s a necessary precursor.

It is however quite volatile for now and only very few committed investors hold it long term.

Who’d use a volatile asset for savings? For now it’s just a spec asset, and sure people are trading it, but as the market capitalisation growth, and fluctuations subside, it may very well become a decent medium of exchange.

Trading is usage as well, as it increases network effects, and availability of the asset across different trading venues, thus increases market penetration.

For the transition from SoV to MoE to occur, a large well dispersed number of holders is required. What difference does it make if they outsource the custody part? It makes sense for some, and regulated entities cannot warehouse it anywhere but a qualified custodian anyway. So sure, holding can occur on exchanges as well.

If you must insist on the blockchain data, look at bitcoins money velocity. It is much closer to M2 than M1, and thus it acts today as a savings vehicle/investment asset: therefore much more similar to bonds than credit cards.

Post reply on HN