The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving • Hacker News Board

Re: The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving

#111

Post by angarg12 » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

usrn wrote: post #32

angarg12 wrote: post #4

This year we finally moved to the US after 2 years of Covid-induced delays. We moved to Seattle because it's where my team is based. I'm far from impressed. The housing market is so inaccessible that we had to rent a house about 1 hour commute from the office. I have hardly visited the offices a handful of times since we moved, and every time there is maybe 1 or 2 people there. Also this spring seems to be one of the…

God only knows why we still have net immigration. I guess despite the way minorities and lower classes are "oppressed" we're still better than everywhere else somehow?

Don't know about others, but I can tell you my reasons:

a) Higher salary

b) Better career opportunities

c) An idealized view of the American society

a) is easiest. I more than doubled my income by moving here. If I jumped companies (I can't due to visa) I could easily expect a 50%-100% bump. That's nothing to scoff at. Even accounting for increased cost of living, we are talking about life changing amounts of money. Also it's impossible to not feel bad when you know that the junior eng. you are coaching due to perf issues makes more money than you, just because he lives in the US and you don't.

b) is more subtle. I always had the perception that people at the main offices got better opportunities and faster promos than people at satellite offices. Other's have echoed these feelings, but I've never seen data. Outside the company, it is undeniable the job market is bigger and hotter here. Even the largest EU tech hubs don't come close.

c) is the lousiest one. I haven't had much chance to experience it yet so I don't have much of an opinion. I'd say though that having lived in 5 different countries, there are other places with a culture that resonates with me. So yes, USA might be better than my home country, but there are alternatives.

Now due to Covid points a) and b) are becoming less important. Salaries in the EU have gone up, and with mostly remote workforces career opportunities are better distributed. c) was always subjective and a matter of taste. So far I haven't got a great image of the American society, but our landing here has been particularly rough. I think I'll give it a couple of years before I pass judgement.

Re: The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving

#112

Post by delecti » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

redisman wrote: post #82

delecti wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's definitely true. Lots of people I know here have a hard time with SAD, and Seattle being so far north is exacerbated by how cloudy the winter is. Though if the winter isn't a dealbreaker, the summer makes up for it by being absolutely gorgeous for a few months almost straight, at least aside from wildfire smoke and a handful of days of unbearable heat.

The smoke sucks but as for heat, I’m not sure you can avoid some hot days anywhere in the US

Yes, though most places in Seattle don't have AC because it's not hot enough often enough, so 90+ here can be more disruptive than 100+ in other places, and 100+ here is dangerous and debilitating.

Re: The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving

#113

Post by bin_bash » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #110

EB66 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There isn't a lot of outdoorsy things to do aside from hanging out by the pool anyways though. The nature is ugly and there are no hills. That's primarily why people tolerate Seattle's climate. 9 months out of the year it will often be grey and rainy, but the natural wilderness is phenomenal exactly because of that. If you're into the outdoors, backpacking, fishing, kayaking, canoeing, mountain biking, trail runnin…

But with remote work, you can, say, go east of the Cascades where the weather is better and you have all that outdoor stuff too. I grew up in Eugene and I am just done with that much rain and, like others have mentioned, endless gray.

As someone that's done remote work for a long time, I wouldn't live east of the Cascades because it's so far from any good airport. (Also because my family and I are big travelers). Post-2020 we don't visit the office much but once your company wants you to come into the office every quarter that 3 hour drive each way from Bend is going to be hell—or dealing with that postage stamp of an airport in Redmond.

Even if your office is close enough for a regional airport you might change jobs.

Of course Eugene basically has the same problem.

Re: The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving

#114

Post by czbond » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

angarg12 wrote: post #4

This year we finally moved to the US after 2 years of Covid-induced delays. We moved to Seattle because it's where my team is based. I'm far from impressed. The housing market is so inaccessible that we had to rent a house about 1 hour commute from the office. I have hardly visited the offices a handful of times since we moved, and every time there is maybe 1 or 2 people there. Also this spring seems to be one of the…

I'm glad you're happy in Dallas. I'm a Dallas native who moved - bc we couldn't stand it. Many folks I know also moved, it seems to be a city for a certain type. I'll relay my type for others who may read your version.

We moved due to the consumerism (I've called it the Los Angeles of the South) and utter boredom of the city if you're not into shopping, eating out, sports teams, and many are focused solely on their corporate j.o.b. However, after moving I've also found that places that don't care about their career - are on the opposite end of the annoying spectrum (ha!)

The people in Dallas are some of the best I've met, down to Earth, easy to talk with and get along. But hell if I'd ever move back.

Re: The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving

#115

Post by kodah » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

angarg12 wrote: post #101

zucked wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the housing is, by-and-large, a lot cheaper, but the cities are not super walkable (if that's important to you) and the weather is often the opposite of cold and wet - it's hot and muggy. I don't do well with humidity, so a huge swath of the US is out for me. Plugging this tool again because it ate up an hour of my day last time it was posted: https://www.movemap.io/explore/us

Great website! thanks a lot for that. This seems to confirm my intuition. Our parameters spit out southern california and a few places in Texas, including Austin. SoCal is still incredibly expensive. I considered Austin before but I'm a bit concerned about politics. Although I know it's a bit of a progressive bubble, Texas is still overwhelmingly and overly conservative, so that might be a big drag.

> Texas is still overwhelmingly and overly conservative, so that might be a big drag.

Kind of, keep in mind ~50% of Texas votes Democrat, Republicans just squeeze wins. Also keep in mind that Texas Democrats are not like national Democrats, and I'd hardly call Austin something like "progressive". It marches to its own tune, which is just fine for Texas.

Re: The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving

#116

Post by causi » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

bin_bash wrote: post #108

kurthr wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dallas (and Fort Worth) is a huge metropolis (especially in area because it's not dense). There is definitely easily visible homelessness and crime in the downtown (got to DeepEllum) and actually surrounding many nicer neighborhoods (Turtle Creek, or even NorthBranch ). That you say there is no traffic implies to me that you are outside the Loop12 (and the Interstate ring) and don't ever take Central or I35 through D…

I'm in the northern suburbs, and you're right that I don't live in Dallas proper but I said "Dallas area". There are certainly homeless people once you get to Downtown—and they can be a lot more "forthcoming" than they are even in SF or LA. Downtown Dallas isn't like any of the west coast city downtowns though, it's small and there isn't much of a need to go there. However up here I haven't seen a single one in over…

Speaking from a totally selfish perspective, it really is incredible to have a downtown area in the 15-30 minute drive range away. They act like heatsinks to suck the riffraff out of the surroundings. If you're homeless, why stay in the unwalkable town where you see 1/10 the people? If you're a criminal, why stay where you might be recognized and have 1/10 the targets and no alleys to hide in? Let the people who want to live in a concrete anthill do it.

My personal target for living is a city of at least 50,000 people but less than 1,000 per square mile.

Re: The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving

#117

Post by davidw » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 5:17 PM UTC

This is pretty interesting. There are tons of small towns throughout the western US that are nice places in their own way. Will the remote work trend cause people to move there?

A few random ones the top of my head:

* Baker City, Oregon: near a small ski area, mountains, sunnier and nicer than western Oregon.

* Silver City, New Mexico: (very) small college town next to the national forest. Great climate because it's far south, but at enough altitude that it's not miserably hot in the summer compared, to, say, Phoenix.

Re: The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving

#118

Post by angarg12 » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

tjr225 wrote: post #11

angarg12 wrote: post #4

This year we finally moved to the US after 2 years of Covid-induced delays. We moved to Seattle because it's where my team is based. I'm far from impressed. The housing market is so inaccessible that we had to rent a house about 1 hour commute from the office. I have hardly visited the offices a handful of times since we moved, and every time there is maybe 1 or 2 people there. Also this spring seems to be one of the…

Quoted post unavailable.

Hey, I want to answer this one because I think it's important.

You might think of me as a privileged high paid tech worker driving prices up. Actually I come from a working class family in southern europe. I'd spare you the details but I spent all my live slowly crawling up my way to where I am. Nearing 40 my life savings are 5 figures, and I have never owned any property or anything of value. Had I been born in the US I would be held as a paragon of the American dream and social mobility.

So now I move and start in a new country all over again. We live in a visa that would kick us out of the country if I lost my job, and it will take years to achieve any kind of stability. We have to pay a good chunk of our inflated tech income to pay for rent.

I know complaining as a tech worker is playing the world smallest violin. I recognize and appreciate my privilege. But we aren't exactly the winners here. The winners are landlords and investment funds.

Blaming highly paid immigrants misses the point and just serves to tear us further apart. Instead we should look at the systems that have caused a systematic shortage of housing.

Re: The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving

#119

Post by wing-_-nuts » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

juve1996 wrote: post #44

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More rain yes, but that rain comes down in heavy storms instead of miserable perma-drizzle and mist. This means even days with a forecast for rain will often be sunny until the front rolls through.

Sunny and oppressively humid and hot.

It's all relative. Atlanta is refreshingly cool compared to cities located closer to the gulf coast.

Re: The Great Decentralization? Geographic shifts and where tech talent is moving

#120

Post by bin_bash » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

czbond wrote: post #114

angarg12 wrote: post #4

This year we finally moved to the US after 2 years of Covid-induced delays. We moved to Seattle because it's where my team is based. I'm far from impressed. The housing market is so inaccessible that we had to rent a house about 1 hour commute from the office. I have hardly visited the offices a handful of times since we moved, and every time there is maybe 1 or 2 people there. Also this spring seems to be one of the…

I'm glad you're happy in Dallas. I'm a Dallas native who moved - bc we couldn't stand it. Many folks I know also moved, it seems to be a city for a certain type. I'll relay my type for others who may read your version. We moved due to the consumerism (I've called it the Los Angeles of the South) and utter boredom of the city if you're not into shopping, eating out, sports teams, and many are focused solely on their c…

Dallas has a definite "consumerist" feel to it. You see more luxury cars here than in SF even though there is a lot less money. Sports are big though I'm definitely not into them.

I think it depends on where you are in life and what you want out of your city. I would hate this place if I was 20. It's not the best for meeting new people from different walks of life and experiencing new things. It's for people looking to settle down in comfort with their families. It has a real 1950's postwar America feel to me. If you don't have a family don't bother moving to Dallas: you'll be bored out of your skull and have no way to relate to people.

I think you're wrong that people are focused solely on their job here, for that experience move to the Bay or Seattle. Here I find even software engineers are more likely to talk to me about what fruit trees they're growing in their backyard than what Series their startup just entered.