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No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

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Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#101

Post by cle »

wolverine876 wrote: post #84

> In the mid-fourth century BC, an experienced Greek general decided to spend his retirement doing something different – writing a book sharing his expertise with the general public. In mid-fourth century BCE, was writing a book really sharing with the general public? They had no printing press. How many would read a book? Who was it really written for?

This was around the time that libraries--with armies of scribes--became popular as political tools to help govern and disseminate Hellenistic culture, so this seems like a reasonable thing for a Greek general to do in that context.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#102

Post by aidenn0 »

baud147258 wrote: post #2

I'm disappointed the article didn't have a link towards a copy of the book; at this point I think most copyright have expired, no? Here's one I found: http://demonax.info/doku.php?id=text:how_to_survive_under_si...

What you linked is quite possibly still under copyright. The original greek should be public domain, but the translation is dated 1927, and works from 1927 won't enter the public domain until January 2023.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#103

Post by baybal2 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #84

> In the mid-fourth century BC, an experienced Greek general decided to spend his retirement doing something different – writing a book sharing his expertise with the general public. In mid-fourth century BCE, was writing a book really sharing with the general public? They had no printing press. How many would read a book? Who was it really written for?

There were many more books historically than most people uninterested in history suspect up do deep antiquity.

Books were very precious. A 5th century monthly salary of a scribe was enough to buy a house.

Yet, 99%+ of written data from Greece, and Rome is lost. We lost both archival data, and literature. First to rot, second to book burning.

Literature was state sponsored for most of classical period, and "casual" writing all about propagating Greek culture to "not-so-Greeks" (Thracians, North Africans)

Literature was subsidised not so much for elites, but to create more elites

Luddites, and book burners are your typical strongman elite who rule by swinging a club.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#104

Post by isk517 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #84

> In the mid-fourth century BC, an experienced Greek general decided to spend his retirement doing something different – writing a book sharing his expertise with the general public. In mid-fourth century BCE, was writing a book really sharing with the general public? They had no printing press. How many would read a book? Who was it really written for?

Interesting question really, but considering the amount of philosophy and other record information we have from Greece they probably had some system of disseminating this information. I would imagine the intent would be to create a few copies, send them out to the officials of various cities who would then use the information to educate the general populous because what benefit would one derive from living in a under defended city.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#105

Post by wolverine876 »

baybal2 wrote: post #103
wolverine876 wrote: post #84

> In the mid-fourth century BC, an experienced Greek general decided to spend his retirement doing something different – writing a book sharing his expertise with the general public. In mid-fourth century BCE, was writing a book really sharing with the general public? They had no printing press. How many would read a book? Who was it really written for?

There were many more books historically than most people uninterested in history suspect up do deep antiquity. Books were very precious. A 5th century monthly salary of a scribe was enough to buy a house. Yet, 99%+ of written data from Greece, and Rome is lost. We lost both archival data, and literature. First to rot, second to book burning. Literature was state sponsored for most of classical period, and "casual" wr…

Is there something I can read about that, especially the population of books (number, content, etc.)?

> most people uninterested in history

No need to denigrate people who don't know some things that you do! Thanks for sharing it.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#106

Post by corrral »

wolverine876 wrote: post #105
baybal2 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were many more books historically than most people uninterested in history suspect up do deep antiquity. Books were very precious. A 5th century monthly salary of a scribe was enough to buy a house. Yet, 99%+ of written data from Greece, and Rome is lost. We lost both archival data, and literature. First to rot, second to book burning. Literature was state sponsored for most of classical period, and "casual" wr…

Is there something I can read about that, especially the population of books (number, content, etc.)? > most people uninterested in history No need to denigrate people who don't know some things that you do! Thanks for sharing it.

I didn't read that as denigration at all—"uninterested" isn't disparaging, right? It's not even insult-adjacent-in-colloquial-use-but-not-elsewhere like "ignorant", is it?

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#107

Post by robonerd »

bargle0 wrote: post #93
robonerd wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sparta is famous for having a really, really good PR agency. This is a very figurative claim, yes? It seems untrue otherwise. I've never heard of Sparta having a propaganda organization, least of all an outward facing one. Obviously their social structure indoctrinated their own into itself, but that's not the same thing as having a PR agency. As far as I'm aware, everything known/believed about the Spartans today…

It makes sense to talk up the guys you beat, since it amplifies your own achievements. Did the victors write about the Spartans?

Neither Xenophon nor Plutarch beat Sparta, nor were beat by Sparta. Plutarch was writing about things the Spartans had supposedly said or done a thousand years before. Xenophon was an Athenian mercenary and military commander who fought alongside the Spartans, not against them, and became a Laconophile from the experience. The perception of his alignment with Sparta (and his association with Socrates) severely harmed his reputation in Athens. He was eventually banished by Athens after being on Sparta's side at the Battle of Coronea.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#108

Post by Rebelgecko »

aidenn0 wrote: post #102
baud147258 wrote: post #2

I'm disappointed the article didn't have a link towards a copy of the book; at this point I think most copyright have expired, no? Here's one I found: http://demonax.info/doku.php?id=text:how_to_survive_under_si...

What you linked is quite possibly still under copyright. The original greek should be public domain, but the translation is dated 1927, and works from 1927 won't enter the public domain until January 2023.

IIRC, the default is that works from 1927 are public domain in the US now. It would only still be protected if the author filed additional paperwork at the right time(s). However I don't know how easy it is to determine whether or not that's the case.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#109

Post by corrral »

robonerd wrote: post #92
jcranmer wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sparta is famous for having a really, really good PR agency. It's telling that their most famous military operation is fighting a rearguard action where they comprised less than 10% of the total forces. Their famous martial discipline and military life style? Our contemporary sources wax poetical about these... before footnotes saying that's what it should be and used to be, but isn't actually anymore. It should be n…

> Sparta is famous for having a really, really good PR agency. This is a very figurative claim, yes? It seems untrue otherwise. I've never heard of Sparta having a propaganda organization, least of all an outward facing one. Obviously their social structure indoctrinated their own into itself, but that's not the same thing as having a PR agency. As far as I'm aware, everything known/believed about the Spartans today…

It's more that authoritarian elites in other city-states liked to write about how awesome Sparta was, than that Sparta had a good PR organization.

[EDIT] Now that I think about it, it's got some parallels with some American and British elites' infatuation with Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, at least until the wars started and/or the news of atrocities became irrefutable (and sometimes, even after that)

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#110

Post by boomboomsubban »

floxy wrote: post #90
nradov wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overall the Spartans weren't even much more effective. They took some losses battling other Greek city-states. Their martial prowess has been somewhat exaggerated. https://acoup.blog/2019/09/20/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...

>Their martial prowess has been somewhat exaggerated. That straight wins/losses analysis leaves something wanting. Which were defensive battles and which were offensive ones? Could their reputation have prevented defensive battles which they would have otherwise subsequently won? And maybe more important, if it would have prevented battles they would have lost. The "If" reply being of course the famous example.

I think the straight win/loss ratio underestimates them a bit, but it's more to show they're nowhere near the 100% dominant force their reputation leads one to expect. The author's overall take is they were likely the best among Greece at the time, but not by a ton.
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