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No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

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Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During military service, you're typically not home with service weapons. You're stationed wherever you're receiving training, and that's where weapons remain.

The army in Switzerland does exactly this. They can mobilize faster with the guns and ammo at home.

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Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that their martial discipline and military life style is what they are famous for. Again, I think that the failure of the effectiveness of their of their military training simply shows that in war there are a lot of factors. Sth that can be seen even in our times, the US effectively lost in Vietnam or Iraq even though their military was far superior.

Sparta is famous for having a really, really good PR agency. It's telling that their most famous military operation is fighting a rearguard action where they comprised less than 10% of the total forces. Their famous martial discipline and military life style? Our contemporary sources wax poetical about these... before footnotes saying that's what it should be and used to be, but isn't actually anymore. It should be n…

> Sparta is famous for having a really, really good PR agency.

This is a very figurative claim, yes? It seems untrue otherwise. I've never heard of Sparta having a propaganda organization, least of all an outward facing one. Obviously their social structure indoctrinated their own into itself, but that's not the same thing as having a PR agency. As far as I'm aware, everything known/believed about the Spartans today comes from people who weren't Spartans, like Xenophon and Plutarch. The Spartans didn't write about themselves, or if they did, those writings didn't survive.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sparta is famous for having a really, really good PR agency. It's telling that their most famous military operation is fighting a rearguard action where they comprised less than 10% of the total forces. Their famous martial discipline and military life style? Our contemporary sources wax poetical about these... before footnotes saying that's what it should be and used to be, but isn't actually anymore. It should be n…

> Sparta is famous for having a really, really good PR agency. This is a very figurative claim, yes? It seems untrue otherwise. I've never heard of Sparta having a propaganda organization, least of all an outward facing one. Obviously their social structure indoctrinated their own into itself, but that's not the same thing as having a PR agency. As far as I'm aware, everything known/believed about the Spartans today…

It makes sense to talk up the guys you beat, since it amplifies your own achievements. Did the victors write about the Spartans?

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#94
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How convenient to "forget" "western" factors and blame everyone else instead.

This one was not caused by west in any way. West joined way later. Oh, and you conveniently ignore Russian factor too - they were the ones targeting hospitals and ranking up civilian causalities as a strategy.

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Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sparta is famous for having a really, really good PR agency. It's telling that their most famous military operation is fighting a rearguard action where they comprised less than 10% of the total forces. Their famous martial discipline and military life style? Our contemporary sources wax poetical about these... before footnotes saying that's what it should be and used to be, but isn't actually anymore. It should be n…

> Sparta is famous for having a really, really good PR agency. This is a very figurative claim, yes? It seems untrue otherwise. I've never heard of Sparta having a propaganda organization, least of all an outward facing one. Obviously their social structure indoctrinated their own into itself, but that's not the same thing as having a PR agency. As far as I'm aware, everything known/believed about the Spartans today…

The better sentence I should have written is "Sparta is famous because it had a really, really good PR agency," as opposed to "for having". The general point is that Sparta lived much more on its reputation (fueled by the likes of Xenophon and Plutarch) than its actual historical record.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#96
post #26

The almost unreasonable effectiveness of citizen-soldier over the ages is often underappreciated. It takes life-long dedication and a whole martial culture for professionals to keep the upper hand (medieval Europe, Sparta)

It's an incredibly strange thing, from a historical perspective to have any distinction between the term citizen and the term soldier. It was, for every definition of the term citizen until 1973 (or perhaps until 1920), an obligation of all citizens that they fight when their country (or cit-y) was at war. This is why they were male, why the bearing of arms was so important (because depending on the time, you'd bring your own), and why civic spirit is high in such societies. Citizen societies embrace the cameraderie of a war band, whose freedom is guaranteed by their own hands. This is why the disjunction between citizen and slave existed, because citizens were those people, or the descendents of those people who guaranteed their freedom, and their property (land, cattle, etc.) by force of arms.

Now it's just a little blue passport book.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#97

I'm disappointed the article didn't have a link towards a copy of the book; at this point I think most copyright have expired, no? Here's one I found: http://demonax.info/doku.php?id=text:how_to_survive_under_si...

Don't rush to conclusions before consulting a good lawyer specialized in ancient Greek copyright law.

It will only cost you a few thousand dollars per hour.

But it's worth it. Who knows, you might even face retroactive jail time in ancient Greece for such infringement...

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Powers are not balanced in Switzerland. The reason most modern countries stopped conscription is because infantrymen are far less useful than they used to be in combats - they remain useful if you want to control the place you have invaded but are not that useful to do the actual invading. Advanced weaponry is just too efficient: artillery, helicopters, planes, drones, missiles. Switzerland is not even really trying…

I think they're wrong about modern Switzerland, but they raise an issue that's crossed my mind occasionally: that Athenian democracy followed the emergence of the phalanx, a technology that favored the use of large, non-specialized citizen armies, and that our current military technology is the polar opposite of that.

It's the opposite.

Phalanxes are the kind of thing where a break in coordination by any one man results you all getting rekt. The conflict between the Greeks and the Persians is a pretty good example of what happens when you have specialized men against a much larger force of levied up men of dubious quality. The Greeks won.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#99
post #3

The real interesting part is the Swiss model, or instead of having a big army a small one with heavy weapons and a popular conscription one month (paid) per year 18-28 years range, for the rest. That's interesting because: - it's not good to go to war OUTSIDE country borders - power are balanced: the State can count (perhaps) on army, but if it goes against the people they are trained and armed, with less heavy weapo…

Popular conscription is nothing else but slavery. And sexist one, most of the time.

Any society without conscription is a society of human livestock, because they are defended by men not their compatriots, but their shepherds.

Re: No Army? No Problem: Defending the Home Front in Ancient Greece

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The army in Switzerland does exactly this. They can mobilize faster with the guns and ammo at home.

I'm not Swiss, but a quick peruse of Wikipedia says that this is no longer the case except for ~ 2,000 specialist militia members at any given time - the Swiss keep their militia-issued firearms in the home but ammunition is kept in government armouries. You can purchase your militia firearm after your service has ended but it must be converted to semi-automatic and you have to apply for a permit - a semi-automatic f…

That (having ammunition at home, or not, for various parts of their forces) sounds like a detail which would be relatively easy to dial up or down, depending on the Swiss Dept. of Defense's current assessment of the threat level...
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