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In defense of cryptocurrency

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

431–440 of 578 posts

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#431

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> I disagree with the article on this point. No reasonable person expects to be able to reverse a cash transaction; What gave you this idea? If I have proof that I paid you cash for a service, and then proof you didn't provide that service, I absolutely expect to be able to reverse that transaction, via the legal system. > A blockchain is much more resilient; the equivalent would be to have hundreds or thousands of r…

> If I have proof that I paid you cash for a service, and then proof you didn't provide that service, I absolutely expect to be able to reverse that transaction, via the legal system. That's very different from what's meant by "reversible transactions" in the context of other payment systems. If the legal system can dictate the reversal of a cash transaction, then it can do so for a crypto transaction - without eithe…

> That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Mine and everyone else's who holds important information in databases. The whole financial system for one.

> NFTs can store arbitrary data.

Up to some size.

> Which is many orders of magnitude easier than the current system.

It is not. The current system scales with the number of home transactions. Your proposal scales with the number of homes - a much bigger number.

> Besides, it doesn't have to be all or nothing; a gradual opt-in transition would be perfectly doable.

Sure, but then it's just a whole bunch of extra work for no benefits for 10-20 years. Not just for the county clerk, but also for home owners and buyers: not only will they still need to process the existing requirements, they would also have new requirements to obtain and prove ownership of their ETH/other crypto wallet. And they wouldn't see any advantage at all until the next time they sell their home (hopefully they will still remember their wallet address and private key by then!).

> On just about anything noteworthy that's not Ethereum, the cost is on the scale of cents. Wow, such unaffordable, many expensive.

Well, there are exactly two block chains that are somewhat noteworthy outside the crypto bubble: Bitcoin and Ethereum. And Bitocin doesn't support NFTs.

And any other block gain that becomes even mildly popular quickly explodes in values and transaction fees just like the other two. Turns out that storing hundreds of thousands of copies of the same data, and writing every single transaction to hundreds of thousands of systems before it is considered settled, without any kind of permission system, is actually very costly.

Note: you're right on the cash transaction statement, to some extent. There are still some important differences I feel, mainly related to the fact that today's systems enforce knowing the legal identity of parties to a transaction for something like a house, even if the sale is done in cash - which wouldn't be guaranteed if the house could be traded by selling an NFT on a chain.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#432

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> instead we trust code that is emotionless, non-judgemental and consistent. Yes. Because that code just appeared out of nowhere, and it's perfect, and devoid of issues.

No, that's why many people is working on it now. If you compare old smart contract with new ones, you will see that things are slowly getting fixed. For e.g., you could literally send NFTs to any address (including a smart contract address) which make things stuck forever. Now there's a safe way to transfer things which check whether or not it is a valid address. And this became the de facto standard for almost any N…

Exactly. So when you write something like this: "instead we trust code that is emotionless, non-judgemental and consistent." what you're really saying is: "we trust a bunch of programmers to write perfect code" when even those programmers cannot understand the code they write: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31692704

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#433
post #421

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> allowing any two willing parties to transact directly And what happens if one of the parties is not willing? If someone's e-wallet gets broken into and funds are transferred? How does any current system handle that situation? A lot of folks consider irreversibility a feature, when there's a strong case to be made that it is a bug.

The system does not handle it. If that is a problem for you, then cryptocurrencies are not for you. In a way it's like cash. If your wallet is stolen, there is no easy way to get your money back.

In reality, a crypto wallet is better compared to a bank account, though. Most people don't carry their life savings (or comparable amounts) in cash.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#434
post #329

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None of your examples are good ideas though. DNS requires proof of identity and a mechanism for settling disputes (e.g. so you can't buy google.com if you're not named Google; and also can't buy g0ogle.com, gooogle.com, gOogle.com etc) to be a useful system. Minting NFTs simply can't give you that, and once you involve a party that can settle disputes, all advantages of NFTs disappear. Not to mention, most NFTs as us…

> DNS requires proof of identity and a mechanism for settling disputes Hah. Like giving Meta the ability to create legal disputes against long-standing companies that happen to share its new name. This is a system that rewards those with the funds to pay the legal fees, or settle disputes outside of court with large lump sums. Not all users want a system where Meta can take a domain you own simply because they now ha…

Trademark law is an important component of having a market that actually functions. If I go to a site that my registrar says is Spotify.ro, but I can't be sure that it's not some scam company that is squatting a domain with their name, I as a consumer have a problem. Similarly, if I mistyped and arrive at Spotifyi.com and nothing shows me this is not a different entity than Spotify, it's still a problem for me.

That the trademark system can itself be abused to take out other legitimate companies with similar sounding names, as happened with Meta, Apple and many others (even worse with McDonald's vs many family restaurants in Scotland) is a different problem altogether, that ENS won't solve either way.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#435

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I have bought two properties in two different first-world countries and also bought NFTs with Ethereum. The idea of houses on a blockchain are pretty much a pipe dream. But there are a lot of systems in traditional house buying that could be made easier with crypto-like ideas. Saying “real estate should be on-chain” should be read as asking for more NFT-like features in how real estate is transacted. - as a cash bidd…

I live in the UK (scotland specifically, where the process is different here). The house buying process here _is_ essentially decentralized but it's not trusting potential adversories by default. I don't think that many of your suggestions of crypto like improvements will help though. > as a cash bidder you need to provide proof of funds to the estate agent, Here, you don't provide them to the seller, you provide the…

One of my property purchases was in the UK for me as well. The system is horrid. Blind bidding and behind-closed-doors conversations is common in the UK, and often buyers will end up over-bidding since it favours the selling agent’s commission fee. Depending on how well you know your agent and how much they are willing to hint at, you may be in a better position than another bidder. To make things worse, the UK has long periods after accepting a bid but before exchanging contracts, so “gazumping” is a regular fear in UK real estate market

Yes these are mostly policy and regulatory hurdles but there are also some technical solutions that could be applied here.. The fact that a screenshot of a bank website or PDF passes as proof of funds for a 6 or 7 figure cash bid is laughable.. the idea that a concluded auction won’t fully settle for days, weeks or months is wild after being accustomed to bidding and auctions based on smart contracts. if a listing agent accepted USDC and a zk-proof as a proof of funds for the bid, the actual transfer into a solicitor’s holding account could be settled in minutes and with zero privacy invasion.

This is all purely hypothetical, and not likely to work across the board.. but it does present some areas that cryptographic tech could improve upon our traditional financial system

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#436
post #186

I was a crypto skeptic for many years. If you look at crypto purely from an engineering lens, you'll always find it wanting. What I didn't understand was that crypto is as much of an economic and political project, as it is an engineering project. If you think decentralisation and trustlessness are valuable, you should think crypto is important. If you don't care for decentralisation then being negative on crypto is…

Exactly, if you have complete faith and trust in conventional FIAT currencies and the systems they use to transact the use cases for crypto also seem far less compelling. As an example, the appeal of deflationary Bitcoin is much more salient to a citizen of Argentina than to a citizen of the USA (although recent inflation might make the appeal more obvious). Or on the even more extreme end, the citizen of Zimbabwe wo…

How is bitcoin deflationary when the price has fallen 50% or so in the past year, and appears to be highly correlated with tech growth stocks?

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OP states there is nothing unique or special about blockchains, then notes a unique and special fundamental aspect that enables (some) blockchains. PoW precedes bitcoin by quite some time so the idea that it is a unique and special thing about (some) blockchains is false.

PoW precedes bitcoin but was never used as a distributed consensus algorithm before it, blockchain precedes bitcoin but was never used as a distributed data structure before it, this is all acknowledged in my original comment. Do you argue that innovations composed of several ideas are exactly as novel as those ideas themselves? that would lead you to believe that there is no innovation at all happening in computers…

As GP mentions I talk about them separately.

The reason I don't think there's anything genius about cryptocurrency as a technology is because it's not impressive. It's been more than 13 years or so now and wow, PoW managed to do exactly what we said it would: burn a ton of energy on useless work in order to prevent Sybil attacks.

PoS is also really stupid.

Cryptocurrency was cute and easy to ignore when it was a bunch of libertarian crypto hackers messing around in their bedrooms and writing long, naive forum posts about how they were going to replace banking and form a new world order. They made themselves sound like conspiracy crack pots without any help from critics.

But the technology was built and designed by people with dangerous political beliefs and poor understanding of economics. And whether they were naive and had good intentions in the beginning matters little now that it has been completely co-opted by conspiracy theorists and fascists.

They're trying to convince senators to pass bills that would regulate cryptocurrency by the CFTC and not the SEC. They are undermining every possible avenue to regulating cryptocurrencies, exchanges, DAOs and all of the systems built on this technology.

They're doing it because they're making too much money ripping off regular people, retail investors, etc and right now there are few consequences to doing so. The people making money off of cryptocurrencies are suckering people into departing with their life savings, leaving piles of e-waste and new coal plants in the global south, and are generally not interested in helping anyone but themselves. They literally do not give one single ounce for any Joe-Bitcoin user out there. As long as there are enough new people coming in so they can cash out they're happy to say anything.

This is the world that cryptocurrency people want. Small government, no regulation, no sanctions, gold-standard deflationary "money", untraceability, etc.

Regular people don't benefit from this. They benefit from the existing banking and legal system that put limits on what is acceptable to protect them and their businesses from fraud and crime.

There's nothing to defend. Cryptocurrency has spoken for itself. It's not genius magical technology that's going to usher in a new age of peace and prosperity. It's a community run like a conspiracy convention where any crack pot can come in and share their theories about the evils of governments and the global banking system coming for you. It's garbage technolgy promoted by terrible people who want to extract wealth from poor people, commit crimes, and not be subject to regulation by governments.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a huge UX issue for anyone that wants to self-custody. In the same spirit as the OP, people are working on solutions for this. Vitalik posted about it last year: https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/01/11/recovery.html . I don't know the technical details, but Coinbase is launching a wallet system where the private key is "split" between the user and Coinbase. After explaining improvements to this specific issue,…

But you're still putting your trust into a centralized organization (Coinbase). So we're back to square one.

I was talking about Coinbase MPC wallet, where they have part of your private key. I think that's pretty far from back to square one, is it not? You still own your private keys but are trusting a centralized organization to keep the other, so it would require both parties to be hacked for the wallet to be at risk.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#439

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That works great except for the fact that 99% of crypto trades occur through exchanges which just put you back to the worst of both worlds.

Your statement isn’t really accurate. https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/defi-dexs-web3/

That analysis has a major flaw. One of the main advantages of a centralized exchange is that they don't have to process all transactions on chain. As such, this is measuring very different statistics for centralized and decentralized exchanges.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#440

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That's not true. Think about the 3rd party as an escrow, not the bank. You wouldn't eliminate the escrow when you're buying a house, would you?

What's the fundamental difference between VISA, an escrow agent and a bank? Isn't VISA just an escrow agent between every transaction who also lends money and charges interest to the purchaser?

VISA is a payments network. It's a way for banks to connect to each other. They don't have any skin in the game and ultimately it's the issuing bank that gives you all those nice things that you believe come from VISA (like chargebacks, fraud protection, etc).

VISA does not lend any money. They just provide the service of moving money for a fee.

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