Stop Interviewing with Leet Code • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#641

Post by iostream24 » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 11:22 AM UTC

frostwarrior wrote: post #288

blueflow wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an adult its your responsibility to produce sensible quality despite social factors. You can not expect society to hold your hand.

It's more about professionalism and stricter standards of engineering and less about being "good despite bad context". You can hire the best artisans for your pot making company and make some of the best pots. However, sooner or later you will encounter problems like disparate outcomes of quality (due to different people having different standards of style, crafting and discipline), unpredictability and reliability.…

Unless the allegedly consolidated decided role of “software engineer level 123” is just a fiction recruiters believe in.

What you are describing doesn’t match my lived experience in this industry

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#642

Post by iostream24 » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 11:27 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #257

jmartin2683 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good engineers learned their craft long before any school got ahold of them. The really good ones skipped the handholding.

This is where you get attitudes like: "If you haven't been programming since you were six, you're rubbish and we don't want you."

I will take a programmer from age 6 over a dozen alleged “software engineers” performing “best practices” theater.

The former can deliver good software with less bugs, the latter might be able to, but are more likely to bikeshed endlessly, while being hamstrung by “best” practices that turn out to be inapplicable in a given domain, or even damaging.

Do wake me up when software engineering becomes a standardized practice that isn’t a mere cargo cult.

I swear, if I read one more comment about doctors and surgery and licensing I’m going to have to diverge on a rant exposing the multiple flaws in popular SE best practices.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#643

Post by iostream24 » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 11:31 AM UTC

Koshkin wrote: post #201

bpicolo wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> replaced them with real engineers nice gatekeeping. Shame on them for working to get a job they want.

I want the airplane I am about to board to be flown by a real pilot.

Oh good! We finally moved past the doctor metaphor.

There is no standardized methodology in SE as of 2022 that has anything resembling actual science as it’s basis, or we would certainly have thrown out LC interview hazing by now.

Your comparison is inaccurate. You might as well rail against non-conservatory musicians who taught themselves to play.

For fields where software safety matters, THERE ARE ALREADY EXISTING LEGALLY ENFORCED CODING STANDARDS

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#644

Post by iostream24 » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 11:35 AM UTC

I’ve kind of had it up to here with the deliberate proposal echoed by many folks here that Leetcode interview hazing has anything to do with either software quality or the safety of safety critical systems.

Safety critical systems already have legally defined coding standards. No really.

The former notion is just not worth defending, but this thread will continue to grow, regardless

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#645

Post by faangiq » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 11:48 AM UTC

This is good. Managers need to leetcode to prove their IQ.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#646

Post by thenoblesunfish » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 11:51 AM UTC

firstSpeaker wrote: post #168

thenoblesunfish wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did - I paid less than I would for a video game, and had as much fun :D

Was it actually useful to improve your skills and you ending up with good solution in the coding round? And how many hours of practice does it usually take to get ok with these type of problems/solutions? :D

Definitely leetcode helped with that. Not sure if I could directly attribute that to the extras I got from paying. I paid for access to more problems and less waiting to submit solutions, mostly. The solutions to the problems can essentially always be found in the comments.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#647

Post by thenoblesunfish » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 11:55 AM UTC

charles_f wrote: post #553

thenoblesunfish wrote: post #160

I think that a blanket rejection of the "Leetcode" style interview is too broad. They are a tool, and like any tool, one should try and understand when they are appropriate for the job. If the "the job" is to try and provide a fairly level playing field on which to assess candidates on raw problem-solving ability and programming intuition, these are useful tools. There are the same problems as with any test of this k…

That's here at the top of the post > I don’t think it’s an all or nothing situation. You should use questions that provide data per whether the candidate will perform in the job they’re interviewing for. If that job is extremely algorithmic driven, e.g. in academia, or involves OS-level optimization, sure, maybe leetcode exercises are relevant

I didn’t think that part went far enough. Companies could reasonably want to hire people who can do well on programming puzzles, even outside of those narrow cases.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#648

Post by drugstorecowboy » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 12:58 PM UTC

krisoft wrote: post #577

drugstorecowboy wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can certainly understand that there are unqualified people who apply, what I'm disputing is your assertion that there is a correlation between doing the contrived problems under unrealistic conditions and future job performance. It sounds like your goal is just to filter out the absolute worst of the worst, and I'm sure its effective at that, but I believe you might be filtering out more of the top end than you rea…

> It sounds like your goal is just to filter out the absolute worst of the worst, Yes. > I'm disputing is your assertion that there is a correlation between doing the contrived problems under unrealistic conditions and future job performance. You are projecting something here. You are saying, without any supporting evidence, that the problems are contrived. They are not. They are really the core of what me and my cow…

If you and your coworkers are solving the problem you posted "day in and day out" just hire me and you can get rid of them :)

You are right though I have no evidence they are contrived other than your example problem. The unrealistic working conditions though is indisputable, do you typically relay your google search's for syntax through your boss? Do you often work under extreme time pressure on problems you have never seen before? Perhaps you do, but I can tell you with certainty that it's not the norm in the industry to work in that way.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#649

Post by iostream25 » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 1:05 PM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #22

It's much better than the alternative and ideally only one part of the interview process. Ultimately the proof is in the pudding, I've had loads of candidates that could barely code and Leetcode-style problems are a great filter against that. Otherwise you risk just getting PM-style bullshitters as engineers, who talk persuasively about projects that other people actually implemented.

I don't agree. Forget Leetcode, ask them to code real world examples of common stuff you will want them to deal with.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#650

Post by cmiles74 » Fri, Jun 10, 2022, 1:14 PM UTC

l33t2328 wrote: post #430

biztos wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can however assess how smart somebody is Are you saying the Leetcode-style interview assesses how smart someone is?

Yes, being able to understand and apply algorithms and data structures requires some intelligence. I know we try to stay away from the “we’re smarter than you” vibe here because it’s gross, but pretending leetcode style questions don’t require some degree of complex thought is absurd.

Personally, I need to practice leetcode style questions pretty regularly in order to perform reliably without reference materials. If more than a couple of months go by, the details of particular algorithms begin to fade.

I think it's unreasonable to expect people to spend their off time practicing these sorts of problems, in the same way we think it's unreasonable to require everyone interviewing to be working on personal development projects over the weekend. I suspect most working people simply do not have the time.