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In defense of cryptocurrency

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#251

Post by randomran01234 »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #226
beambot wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you prove that no one manually added or edited database rows? How do you store the transaction logs & verify their accuracy & authenticity? By the time you build a system with historical "proofs" with enough replication, you'll basically have invented a Blockchain with more complexity.

How do you defend against a 51% attack in an environment where Bitcoin mining is increasingly uneconomic?

Switch to proof of stake which has better defense mechanisms against 51% attacks.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#252

Post by westhom »

yellowapple wrote: post #234
evouga wrote: post #152

This article doesn’t address the main objection I have about the practical value of cryptocurrency, namely, why I can’t take such an application, replace the distributed ledger with a SQL database, and get a solution that’s better in every way. As soon as you have a trusted central authority (monitoring and reversing payment transactions, interacting with government agencies to execute real estate transaction, etc.)…

It wouldn't be better "in every way", though. A blockchain is much more resilient; the equivalent would be to have hundreds or thousands of redundant SQL databases around the world and somehow keep them all in sync. By the time you've done that, you've very likely reinvented a blockchain, at many times the cost of just using an already-existing public blockchain. > monitoring and reversing payment transactions I disa…

>Transaction reversal is indeed outright harmful to honest vendors, and is only really necessary for the legacy systems because the legacy systems have borderline zero protection against dishonest vendors retaining customers' payment information and pulling money from it

This isn’t the only form of dishonesty. There’s cases where you initiate an honest transaction, the vendor ships you something you didn’t ask for because they are trying to clear inventory, and then refuses to refund or exchange. Then you file a claim with Amex and get your transaction reversed in about a week.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#253

Post by yata69420 »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #202
yata69420 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect we have different governments. I don't see mine doing anything remotely like that. I come from a place that still has toll booths so that toll booth workers can keep their jobs. I have to take off my shoes before I can get on an airplane so that my government feels safer. I personally compute my government taxes, which only occasionally (if ever) get verified. That's how we fund the country. If I routinely…

This hatred for the government Americans have is frankly unhealthy. Besides replacing it with tech bros and crypto douchebags doesn't seem like much of an improvement.

Please don't confuse my criticism as hatred. Being critical of the government is a proud part of the American tradition.

If anything (at the risk of sounding extra American), these threads remind me that the US is still the place to be if you want to build something different.

There's a positive side to how the US works too. The few things we really commit to, like building our military, we really are the best at. Also, the lax regulation does let new technologies like driverless cars get tested on open roads. Hurray? I think so.

Somewhere has to be the test-bed for new ideas. When they fail, they'll be expensive and stupid and maybe even stick around for a lot longer than they should (can we please, please, fix the shoes thing with the TSA?). But all together, we do a lot of cool stuff first that changes the world.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#254

Post by mellavora »

shreyshnaccount wrote: post #171
dcolkitt wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many real world systems are "nearly trustless". Of course you still need some sort of court system if someone decides to break bad. But in the 99%+ of times you're in the happy path, economic transactions occur based on autonomous rules encoded in software. The analogy I like to use is what's harder to buy a $1 million house or $1 million of Microsoft stock? The former process takes weeks, and dozens of man hours fro…

Makes no sense. Microsoft stock and houses are very different. I can run an illegal alligator fighting ring in one and not the other.

Bannon? Is that you?

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#255

Post by notahacker »

j_walter wrote: post #4
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

If you think Mastercard and Visa fees are too high, fees are higher on Bitcoin. It's like the way Amway victims will try to sell you an $8 tube of toothpaste, "draw circles" to show that 7 people get a cut from that tube of toothpaste and then say "How does Amway bring you great prices on quality products?" (tap whiteboard) "By eliminating the middleman!"

Not really...the fees for Bitcoin, Ethereum and other L2 options are flat fees and are well under Visa/MC fees most of the time. Might want to look at Western Union and the like too...way way under those fees. Current transaction fee (for 1 cent or a billion dollars) Bitcoin - $1.62 per transaction Ethereum - $3.50 per transaction Ethereum L2 - as low as 12 cents https://l2fees.info/ Here are credit card fees by comp…

My fee for sending money to another UK bank account with instant settlement is $0.00 (or £0.00)

Tell me more about the wonders of paying $1.62 plus currency conversion fees plus speculative asset volatility risk to send money to their bank account with eventually consistent settlement...

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#256

Post by randomran01234 »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #160
lordofgibbons wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As soon as you have a trusted central authority You might have missed the entire point of cryptocurrency. The idea is that it is not centralized and a single entity can't "reverse" transactions.

That works great except for the fact that 99% of crypto trades occur through exchanges which just put you back to the worst of both worlds.

Your statement isn’t really accurate.

https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/defi-dexs-web3/

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#257

Post by benjaminsuch »

yata69420 wrote: post #216
Zerverus wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh gosh how does anything in the world work today without the blockchain

We mostly rely on trust and then prosecute frauds that are "worth" prosecuting (based on dollar value, frequency of fraud, and likelihood of recovery).

I think the parent was sarcasm

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#258

Post by randomran01234 »

lottin wrote: post #220
randomran01234 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This solves inter-bank transfers in EU but does not mean payments going out of, or into, the EU are solved. Crypto takes a different approach: a single protocol that is shared across all countries.

So bitcoin "solves" the problem by being non-compliant with local laws and regulations.

Crypto attempts to solve the problem in the same way that web protocols and web standards do. Define a single shared spec that spans all geographic borders, rather than a spec that is reinvented at each jurisdiction.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#259

Post by dale_glass »

yata69420 wrote: post #190
Nursie wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'd need some kind of shared database that all parties can trust Government run then, the institution that is involved with contract oversight here, an easily identifiable authority in this situation. If you don't trust that here, then there's no point in bothering with sales contracts in the first place. > It'd have to be regularly audited but also kept as up to date as possible. It should have very precise acce…

I suspect we have different governments. I don't see mine doing anything remotely like that. I come from a place that still has toll booths so that toll booth workers can keep their jobs. I have to take off my shoes before I can get on an airplane so that my government feels safer. I personally compute my government taxes, which only occasionally (if ever) get verified. That's how we fund the country. If I routinely…

If you don't have a government you can trust, the only solution is to fix the government first. Because without that, any database is irrelevant.

You need something that's going to help you solve disputes and enforce contracts. If the government isn't competent or your enemy for arbitrary reasons, they'll just ignore any evidence you can point at and do whatever they want to anyway.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#260

Post by sime2009 »

yellowapple wrote: post #234
evouga wrote: post #152

This article doesn’t address the main objection I have about the practical value of cryptocurrency, namely, why I can’t take such an application, replace the distributed ledger with a SQL database, and get a solution that’s better in every way. As soon as you have a trusted central authority (monitoring and reversing payment transactions, interacting with government agencies to execute real estate transaction, etc.)…

It wouldn't be better "in every way", though. A blockchain is much more resilient; the equivalent would be to have hundreds or thousands of redundant SQL databases around the world and somehow keep them all in sync. By the time you've done that, you've very likely reinvented a blockchain, at many times the cost of just using an already-existing public blockchain. > monitoring and reversing payment transactions I disa…

> It wouldn't be better "in every way", though. A blockchain is much more resilient; the equivalent would be to have hundreds or thousands of redundant SQL databases around the world and somehow keep them all in sync.

Technically true, but also completely pointless. An organisation running an SQL database doesn't need hundreds or thousands of redundant SQL nodes/copies to reach the level of robustness required.

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