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In defense of cryptocurrency

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

241–250 of 578 posts

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many real world systems are "nearly trustless". Of course you still need some sort of court system if someone decides to break bad. But in the 99%+ of times you're in the happy path, economic transactions occur based on autonomous rules encoded in software. The analogy I like to use is what's harder to buy a $1 million house or $1 million of Microsoft stock? The former process takes weeks, and dozens of man hours fro…

Tell me you’ve never bought a house without telling me you’ve never bought a house. Buying houses are expensive because: - Realtors are a state-sanctioned monopoly for real estate transactions and suck up a % of the costs. They also provide the necessary service of aggregating information about the market and negotiating on your behalf - Due diligence on the state of the property. This means inspecting that there’s n…

I have bought two properties in two different first-world countries and also bought NFTs with Ethereum.

The idea of houses on a blockchain are pretty much a pipe dream. But there are a lot of systems in traditional house buying that could be made easier with crypto-like ideas. Saying “real estate should be on-chain” should be read as asking for more NFT-like features in how real estate is transacted.

- as a cash bidder you need to provide proof of funds to the estate agent, which might just be a screenshot of your entire bank account balance. privacy with a zk-proof could be used in theory here to hide your balance while still giving the agent confidence you can meet the bid

- blind bidding process is usually opaque and broken, subject to discrimination and some winks and handshakes behind closed doors between friendly parties. a blockchain would give transparency and treat transactions equally regardless of race, sexuality, and friend or family ties.

- settlement times are extremely long in the order of months, not seconds. this is sometimes just because some party including the agents are on holidays, or slow to respond to emails, or forget to sign some paper, or whatever.

- escrow and exchange of funds in some cases could in theory happen with smart contracts where both parties sign a message to perform the exchange, which would reduce the significant commissions and fees.

- the process feels archaic compared to buying most other types of property.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#242
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mastercard and Visa charge a percentage (?!), Bitcoin is a fixed amount per transaction. No, Bitcoin transaction fees are dynamic. https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees...

That doesn't invalidate what I said, although maybe I should have said "flat" instead of "fixed" to be more precise. You pay a flat fee per transaction with Bitcoin, you pay a percentage fee with Mastercard and Visa. Yes, the Bitcoin fee changes with time based on a market. The Mastercard and Visa percentage changes based on how much they like you.

A flat fee isn't necessarily cheaper. A $25 fee on a $1 transaction is equivalent to a 2500% fee.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#243

I really don't want to be a downer but all I read in pro cryptocurrency posts are: It's still new! It needs time! You need to follow the latest developments! It has a lot of potential! It's time already that someone shows some of that potential and it better not be something like NFTs!

No post body was provided.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#244
post #77
post #32

You forgot to mention: if you lose your keys, youre fucked. That is, of course unless you trust a centralized unregulated entity to manage them for you.

Wallet recovery is similar to reversing transactions: you can have it if you're willing to nominate some third party that you trust to manage it for you.

In which case the entire blockchain thing becomes redundant.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#245
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect we have different governments. I don't see mine doing anything remotely like that. Then why are they going to bring in a blockchain solution? It's got the exact same problem there as any other software solution would. That's my point here, making it a blockchain (or a database!) doesn't magically solve the root cause, it's just an implementation detail. If it even is a problem (a lot of other posters don'…

> Now instead of directly transacting at the very low-tech county property registrar I think you've overlooked this in the grandparent, because you've probably never had the experience of going to a low-tech county property registrar's office to pull a record. > it's the absolute ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks Of course, but so much of that bureaucracy is about being risk-adverse. I r…

Minting an NFT is not simpler than adding a record to a relational database. It's pretty clear that technology itself isn't the roadblock.

And if governments ordering security theatre at airports is relevant to their ability to administer property then I've got bad news for you about the track record of people working on building important stuff on blockchains. Difference is they have no need to be involved in property transactions whatsoever, whereas when it comes to enforcing property rights you're stuck with government being involved anyway.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#246
I appreciate the article but it's still disappointing to run into a typical misconception about Bitcoin from someone claiming to make a technical defense of cryptocurrency. He states that Bitcoin is now not so decentralized, presumably because of the concentration of mining power. This is a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of what decentralization means with regards to proof of work. What it means is that there is no central authority that can reverse or change transactions, add taxes, only operate from 9 to 5 on weekdays, etc. The protocol defines the behavior, not a centralized org, and it is perfectly decentralized. Anyone can add a mining node, because the protocol itself is decentralized. Having a smaller group of mining pools doesn't change this core characteristic of PoW blockchains.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and if you lose your private key apparently you deserve to lose everything.

In the same way as someone keeping their savings in cash under their mattress deserves to lose everything or in a different way?

I think the comment you're replying to is ironic.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#248
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect we have different governments. I don't see mine doing anything remotely like that. Then why are they going to bring in a blockchain solution? It's got the exact same problem there as any other software solution would. That's my point here, making it a blockchain (or a database!) doesn't magically solve the root cause, it's just an implementation detail. If it even is a problem (a lot of other posters don'…

> Now instead of directly transacting at the very low-tech county property registrar I think you've overlooked this in the grandparent, because you've probably never had the experience of going to a low-tech county property registrar's office to pull a record. > it's the absolute ton of bureaucracy and paper-shuffling that takes several weeks Of course, but so much of that bureaucracy is about being risk-adverse. I r…

Your response is so full of gaping holes it's kinda crazy. I'm not sure I can even begin to address them.

> I think you've overlooked this in the grandparent, because you've probably never had the experience of going to a low-tech county property registrar's office to pull a record.

No, I haven't overlooked this at all, in fact it's bang on with what I'm trying to get you to understand - that pulling a record can be made faster with a better system, yes. But for some reason you're insisting that only a blockchain can fix that, which is just nonsense.

> If minting officially signed records is as cheap and easy on-chain as it looks like it's going to be, it would be silly not to use the technology, even if you think government should have been the entity to build and maintain it.

You're glossing over the massive effort to bring such a system into place for the land registry in the first place, and reducing the entire problem to record signing. The signing of a record is the most trivial part of the problem. In a DB-driven centralised solution it would be actually free.

So I'll repeat myself here - you're trying to address a bureaucratic issue with a data structure, you're choosing one data storage scheme over another as if that makes the difference, when the difference that leads to the speed gains in the proposal is legislative change and modernisation, not a specific storage scheme.

> It removes the "who has to build and maintain this DB and keep access to it forever" step

It does no such thing, as the data structures and smart contracts specific to land registration will still have to be created, and updated as needs change over time, the human-usable interfaces to those will still have to be created, probably involving API servers and web UIs in the exact same way as any other solution. Someone has to build all this. Someone has to run the infrastructure regardless, and those people will want paying somehow. The fact you can abstract some parts of it away through a blockchain doesn't remove the need for that payment, perhaps in the form of transaction fees, for instance, or rent seeking on these tokens you mentioned earlier.

> Literal teenagers can buy and sell pictures of apes easier than I can prove to a mortgage company that I own my residence.

Umm, so? I mean, Ape pictures are again, trivial, land registries are not, and the proof you want could be an entry in a land registry database just as easily as it could be an NFT. (As it could be for that ape picture, and as it usually more or less is anyway, due to centralisation of API-provision...)

> When the intern at a county clerk's office somewhere in the middle of the country says "hey boss, let's mint NFTs for these records, it costs about a penny each and I can set up the computer to do it as a summer project", that's about the threshold we need for widespread local government adoption.

And that intern is going to know how to implement all the smart contracts around property transfer correctly, taking into account all the legal regulations, edge cases, boundary definitions (and disputes), court system oversight and the million and one other things that are implicit in that proposition?

Seriously? You genuinely think the hardest and most complicated part of transfer of property ownership is the bit where you need to sign a record?

Because that's all you're talking about solving here, and even that isn't something a blockchain solution can do any more easily than any other solution.

All of the benefits of moving to a blockchain that you list are possible, probably with lesser effort and lower complexity, using other systems. None of it is because of blockchains, all of it is process modernisation that you feel you can just gloss over because blockchain.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#249

I appreciate the article but it's still disappointing to run into a typical misconception about Bitcoin from someone claiming to make a technical defense of cryptocurrency. He states that Bitcoin is now not so decentralized, presumably because of the concentration of mining power. This is a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of what decentralization means with regards to proof of work. What it means is that there is…

I would be interested in seeing a similar breakdown of stakers and staking pools for the large PoS chains.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#250
The article basically says that crypto currency currently is a huge scammy mess with lots of unsolved problems - BUT those problems are solvable in theory. It then spends most of it's paragraphs explaining what some of those solutions could look like, before finally admitting that even with those problems solved, crypto currency might not actually improve on any of the problems that existing non-crypto payment systems have.

Am I missing something?

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