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Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

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Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#61

Post by godelski »

Commodore63 wrote: post #9

The cries of racism really ring hollow when they're talking about actions of a government, not a people or a culture.

I think this is explicitly the danger of nationalism. It has always been odd to be, because criticism seems the cornerstone of a democracy. You need to recognize what is wrong (because you're never perfect) and improve upon that. You can do this and have pride in your country too. But we need to disassociate the idea that a people (or race) and their country are one in the same. There's relatively little difference in people due to their race. But similarly we need to be able to allow others to criticize our country without taking it personally. An outside perspective can be valuable.

But I think we end up making it a family issue. I can make fun of and pick on my brother, but you can't.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#62

Post by datalopers »

tomcam wrote: post #56
mise_en_place wrote: post #38

While I do sympathize with this student, you have to be careful when criticizing a hostile government you are a citizen of. Only in the United States do we have such protections in place to prevent the government from retaliating against the individual for voicing a critical opinion.

> Only in the United States do we have such protections in place to prevent the government from retaliating against the individual for voicing a critical opinion. Uh no. Here’s a list of people incarcerated by President Obama for criticism of the USA: https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/employee-speech-and-wh...

Leaking classified information entrusted to you is a fair bit different than voicing a critical opinion.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#63

Post by agapon »

fxtentacle wrote: post #49

I know this way of thinking is horrible, but let me play devil's advocate for a while: What if the CCP puts Uyghurs into prison simply because the majority of Chinese citizens want Uyghurs in prison? 1. That would explain the behavior in the article. 2. That would explain why studies report that people in China feel like a democracy. Their government works in the way that benefits the majority of its people, so for s…

I am not sure what your point is...

Your example is the same as treatment of black people in the U.S. at the time when they did not have equal rights. Your example is the same as treatment of Jews in the Nazi Germany.

Things like that happened and happen. Sometimes the majority of population wants to do horrible things to a minority. That's true. Still not sure why you brought that up.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#64

Post by midasuni »

deltaonefour wrote: post #52
logicchains wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What motivated them? Likely he will give simpleton answers like "power corrupts" or dictatorships are evil without ever understanding the complexity of the situation. The motivation is very simple: the Uighurs started a separatist movement, and there's little the Chinese government hates more than separatist movements. Now, many governments in the world don't like separatist movements, but you don't see the Spanish…

Quoted post unavailable.

The attacks were similar in scale to the Irish attacks in the 70s through 90s. Did the U.K. sterilise Irish people?

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#65

Post by glogla »

deltaonefour wrote: post #52
logicchains wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What motivated them? Likely he will give simpleton answers like "power corrupts" or dictatorships are evil without ever understanding the complexity of the situation. The motivation is very simple: the Uighurs started a separatist movement, and there's little the Chinese government hates more than separatist movements. Now, many governments in the world don't like separatist movements, but you don't see the Spanish…

Quoted post unavailable.

That is a lot of words to say "our genocide is justified".

It is not.

It can never be.

If you think it can be, you don't belong in a society.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#66

Post by koonsolo »

dvt wrote: post #54
zaptrem wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a current senior at Cornell and I'm conflicted. > On Friday, the administration told students in an emailed statement "we have an expectation and responsibility to engage with viewpoints that we disagree with," but that "we must also respect that walkouts are a legitimate form of protest and an appropriate expression of disapproval." I like free speech as much as the next Hacker News user, but many of the actions…

> absolutely should have rebuked those using their free speech in favor of human rights abuses I have no love for communists (having been born in the Eastern Bloc), but that's not how free speech works. Either you're for it (and all the icky stuff that comes with it) or you're against it. There's no "splitting the difference" here. We've debated and litigated this since the Enlightenment (from J.S. Mill to Skokie, IL…

If they are residents, I agree there is nothing you can do about it.

But since they seem to be exchange students, you could say "We don't welcome people with such views here in our country", and just send them back to the country that is ruled by their beloved government.

Just because you have free speech doesn't mean you can't select foreigners based on their beliefs and values.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#67

Post by agapon »

deltaonefour wrote: post #52
logicchains wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What motivated them? Likely he will give simpleton answers like "power corrupts" or dictatorships are evil without ever understanding the complexity of the situation. The motivation is very simple: the Uighurs started a separatist movement, and there's little the Chinese government hates more than separatist movements. Now, many governments in the world don't like separatist movements, but you don't see the Spanish…

Quoted post unavailable.

Fail. Look at the North Ireland situation. There was no "reeducation" of Irish or Catholics that I heard of.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#68

Post by glogla »

koonsolo wrote: post #66
dvt wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> absolutely should have rebuked those using their free speech in favor of human rights abuses I have no love for communists (having been born in the Eastern Bloc), but that's not how free speech works. Either you're for it (and all the icky stuff that comes with it) or you're against it. There's no "splitting the difference" here. We've debated and litigated this since the Enlightenment (from J.S. Mill to Skokie, IL…

If they are residents, I agree there is nothing you can do about it. But since they seem to be exchange students, you could say "We don't welcome people with such views here in our country", and just send them back to the country that is ruled by their beloved government. Just because you have free speech doesn't mean you can't select foreigners based on their beliefs and values.

Even if they are residents, you can absolutely be expelled from university for bullying, hate speech and other abuses.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#69

Post by dirtyid »

fxtentacle wrote: post #49

I know this way of thinking is horrible, but let me play devil's advocate for a while: What if the CCP puts Uyghurs into prison simply because the majority of Chinese citizens want Uyghurs in prison? 1. That would explain the behavior in the article. 2. That would explain why studies report that people in China feel like a democracy. Their government works in the way that benefits the majority of its people, so for s…

It's a lot simpler than that.

PRC's XJ security architecture is publically about counter terrorism and deradicalization through forced reeducation (with mass interment) and poverty alleviation. While forced sterilzation for women with 3+ kids is XJ catching up to family planning policies with rest of PRC. Years of consistent Uyghur terrorist attacks stopped in exchange for repressing minority consisting 0.02% of population. Majory Han is AOK with this. Plurality of UN position endorses XJ as counter terrorism narrative (with overwhemling support from Muslim countries), minority as human right abuses, and fringe as genocide. So when PRC students say:

>"we were crucified in a courtroom for crimes that we did not commit"

They don't mean for crimes they personally did not commit, but alleged "genocide" that the global political UN community majority states PRC did not commit. And in fact the opposite position is true, to them PRC has found a relatively "humane" method of eliminating radical terrorism versus US bombing the shit out of the ME.

As for being vocal / belligerant about it on campus, that's what what happens when complex diasphora drama between PRC and other anti-CCP minorities happens abroad. Especially in for profit "education" institutes (really prestige diploma mills). They're paying 50K USD + board and enjoying their customarhy campus freedom of expression perks. Foreign student enjoying western campus culture doesn't mean they also get brainwashed endorse western foreign policy instead of their domestic ones. Especially when the gap in perspective is so antithetical.

Re: Chinese students at Cornell “taunt” Uyghur classmate

#70

Post by rajup »

glogla wrote: post #59
fxtentacle wrote: post #49

I know this way of thinking is horrible, but let me play devil's advocate for a while: What if the CCP puts Uyghurs into prison simply because the majority of Chinese citizens want Uyghurs in prison? 1. That would explain the behavior in the article. 2. That would explain why studies report that people in China feel like a democracy. Their government works in the way that benefits the majority of its people, so for s…

Yes. China is like this because Chinese are like this, and they want it to be like this (for all possible values of "like this"). Same with Russia (who is invading Ukraine because Russians want it), Saudi Arabia (who is beheading gay people because Saudis want it) and other places. I have even heard following argument: it takes surprisingly little people to overthrow a dictator, so counterintuitively dictators have m…

> it takes surprisingly little people to overthrow a dictator, so counterintuitively dictators have much higher support than democracies.

That’s a very unique perspective I never thought of it that way. I wonder though if some or most of a dictator’s power come from having a tight control over means of suppression, from controlled media to the military. The latter 2 would seem to require a much smaller percentage of support than 90%

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