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Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

theguardian.com

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Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#21

Post by jdsully »

throwaway320923 wrote: post #14
Manuel_D wrote: post #2

I wonder how many people turn on traditional cruise control and then crash due to neglectful driving. That's what we should be comparing Tesla Autopilot against, we should compare it against the status quo.

It's a good question, and I'm dismayed to see the various knee-jerk reactions to it. Seems to get caught up in the pro/anti-Tesla/Musk/blah noise. No, thank you. Here's the thing - people get in accidents all the time when assistance features like ABS, lane keeping, traction control, TACC, good-old-fashioned dumb cruise control, etc. are actively altering the vehicle's performance and behavior. So when we consider Te…

Most of these other implementations have radar and LiDAR. Teslas is the inferior solution. That’s why if you order one you see a disclaimer that it is vision only.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#22

Post by renewiltord »

Sakos wrote: post #13
renewiltord wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all benefited from our ancestors killing opposing tribes so I'm going to ignore that too. If everyone you know is pure, you're doing better than me. No one mentioned racism? Then what's apartheid, mate. Come off it.

Our ancestors, sure. But my dad wasn't a rich white guy from apartheid SA who invested in my first company and financed who knows what else. ... you're saying it's racist of me to mention he's from an extremely racist system that reserved land and particular careers for members of a particular racial classification? Are you okay? Are you on the right site?

> you're saying it's racist of me to mention he's from an extremely racist system that reserved land and particular careers for members of a particular racial classification?

What on Earth? Obviously I'm not saying that.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#23

Post by mike_d »

throwaway320923 wrote: post #14
Manuel_D wrote: post #2

I wonder how many people turn on traditional cruise control and then crash due to neglectful driving. That's what we should be comparing Tesla Autopilot against, we should compare it against the status quo.

It's a good question, and I'm dismayed to see the various knee-jerk reactions to it. Seems to get caught up in the pro/anti-Tesla/Musk/blah noise. No, thank you. Here's the thing - people get in accidents all the time when assistance features like ABS, lane keeping, traction control, TACC, good-old-fashioned dumb cruise control, etc. are actively altering the vehicle's performance and behavior. So when we consider Te…

> Why then is Tesla specifically being focused on?

Because before Tesla launched the feature, "Autopilot" was known in the general consciousness to mean a specific thing. Autopilot is the thing on planes that lets the pilot do other tasks (like navigational routing).

Other car manufactures are smart enough to not brand their cruise control as "Self Driving" or the like.

If I sold a brand of drain cleaner under the name "Laundry Detergent" that would rightly result in some consumer protection investigations.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#24

Post by itsoktocry »

Manuel_D wrote: post #2

I wonder how many people turn on traditional cruise control and then crash due to neglectful driving. That's what we should be comparing Tesla Autopilot against, we should compare it against the status quo.

>I wonder how many people turn on traditional cruise control and then crash due to neglectful driving. That's what we should be comparing Tesla Autopilot against, we should compare it against the status quo.

This is so disingenuous.

Go on YouTube and search for people "self-driving" in their Teslas, then do the same for people doing anything remotely the same with standard cruise control.

Tesla and its fanatics want it both ways: it's both the most sophisticated self-driving software on the planet, and only regulations are preventing it from being widely used and reducing traffic accidents, but when accidents happen it's just "cruise control". Pick one.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#25

Post by mike_d »

ra7 wrote: post #20
toomuchtodo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other automaker AEB (automatic emergency braking) systems have the same stationary object detection deficiency and specifically indicate that the system can fail under these circumstances [1]. Tesla gets called out because their autosteer is so good at lane keeping, comparatively speaking. Their new high resolution radar [2] (Phoenix) they’ve registered with the FCC, as well as a retrofit campaign across the fleet, w…

> Their new high resolution radar [2] (Phoenix) they’ve registered with the FCC, as well as a retrofit campaign across the fleet, will likely resolve this gap. Is a retrofit confirmed or is it just your assumption? They even sold hundreds of thousands of "vision only" cars (including mine) with Musk and Karpathy claiming radar is useless for them. Funny how they've walked it back with this new radar news.

I was always _shocked_ that Musk was such a genius that he figured out how to do self driving without RADAR or LIDAR. If only the hundreds of engineers at Google and Cruise could have made the same discovery. /s

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#26

Post by kube-system »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #8
MBCook wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was happening as often on Volvos or GM vehicles don’t you think they would be looking into it too?

Other automaker AEB (automatic emergency braking) systems have the same stationary object detection deficiency and specifically indicate that the system can fail under these circumstances [1]. Tesla gets called out because their autosteer is so good at lane keeping, comparatively speaking. Their new high resolution radar [2] (Phoenix) they’ve registered with the FCC, as well as a retrofit campaign across the fleet, w…

AEBs and lane-keeping systems on other automakers vehicles are much more conservative in their function, and therefore aren't as conducive to passive driving behavior.

The driving dynamics of different vehicles result in different outcomes not just due to those dynamics themselves, but also in the driving behavior they elicit. (and even further, in that drivers of different driving habits often exhibit selection bias in the vehicles they choose)

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#27

Post by donthellbanme »

aeternum wrote: post #10
MBCook wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was happening as often on Volvos or GM vehicles don’t you think they would be looking into it too?

I don't. You rarely see crashes of other vehicles make the press, but with Teslas you do. Tesla articles get views because of both the Tesla haters and fanboys, makes financial sense for news sites to publish them. That increased press leads to increased investigations.

No post body was provided.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#28

Post by Manuel_D »

itsoktocry wrote: post #24
Manuel_D wrote: post #2

I wonder how many people turn on traditional cruise control and then crash due to neglectful driving. That's what we should be comparing Tesla Autopilot against, we should compare it against the status quo.

> I wonder how many people turn on traditional cruise control and then crash due to neglectful driving. That's what we should be comparing Tesla Autopilot against, we should compare it against the status quo. This is so disingenuous. Go on YouTube and search for people "self-driving" in their Teslas, then do the same for people doing anything remotely the same with standard cruise control. Tesla and its fanatics want…

Is this actually a problem with tesla marketing? Or is it a problem with people being dumb? An aircraft autopilot will happily fly you straight into a mountain. It just holds altitude and bearing. Everyone I know with a Tesla exclusively uses autopilot on the highway in between exits. I'm pretty baffled as to how some people think it's fully autonomous driving, and I'm dubious as to how culpable Tesla is for that ignorance.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#29

Post by itsoktocry »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #8
MBCook wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was happening as often on Volvos or GM vehicles don’t you think they would be looking into it too?

Other automaker AEB (automatic emergency braking) systems have the same stationary object detection deficiency and specifically indicate that the system can fail under these circumstances [1]. Tesla gets called out because their autosteer is so good at lane keeping, comparatively speaking. Their new high resolution radar [2] (Phoenix) they’ve registered with the FCC, as well as a retrofit campaign across the fleet, w…

>Tesla gets called out because their autosteer is so good at lane keeping, comparatively speaking.

Yeah, Tesla gets "called out" because their technology is so good, not because their implicit marketing claims the cars can drive themselves.

There are full time shills whose entire focus is demonstrating on YouTube how the cars can drive themselves. You don't think that has something to do with this? Arguing "That's FSD this is Autopilot" misses the entire point. Elon has 100M followers on Twitter; go scan through any thread. People think they've solved FSD, people think they have humanoid robots, people think he already owns Twitter for crying out loud.

So, yes, if Mary Barra got in her Chevy Bolt and told a reported the car can drive itself and someone died doing the same thing, I think GM would be held to the same standard.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#30

Post by robbiep »

Sakos wrote: post #9
renewiltord wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't do collective punishment. The NYT piece on him showed that he wasn't a racist.

Nobody mentioned racism? Also, Musk benefited from his father's wealth.

I don’t understand this whole ‘tar the son with the (perceived) sins of the father’.

Does this logic mean that if you have the misfortune to be born into a family that has the capability to perform it’s root functions more effectively than others (providing education) your achievements are worth bunk because you don’t have a story of adversity to overcome?

Don’t get me wrong I lean left, believe capability is evenly distributed and opportunity isn’t, but how is this a useful slight?

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