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Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

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Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#501

Post by twawaaay »

Bootvis wrote: post #247
twawaaay wrote: post #93

As an interviewer I can tell you are absolutely missing the point. Why would I ever want to hire a developer without seeing them perform? And since being able to program a small piece of code to specification is such a basic, important part of development, why would it be bad for me to verify if you can do it? If your friends are so good developers, why would they have a problem reasoning around a relatively simple,…

I think you make good points. I also think that Leetcode problems are not good for this (at least for most companies) simply because the problems are too hard and require preparation or luck. Some of the algo's that are being asked took quite some time to initially develop, e.g. Maximum subarray problem. In my opinion it would be better to ask something a lot simpler, should still give you this information.

In general this is a mistake of interviewer asking question they would not be able to answer themselves.

It is super easy to get this wrong. A problem seems much easier when you know the solution. Also, as interviewer you don't want to make mistake of comparing the candidate's knowledge to your experiences -- the candidate might be completely fine but just happened to have different experience from yours and did not meet the same problems as you.

I have a small set of problems which I honed over the years. Some of them are problems which I got when I applied, which makes it easier for me to understand how it is when you are on the other side. Every single problem I have solved in every way I can imagine so that when I interview the candidate I can focus on the other stuff that I care about. I have developed understanding of where the candidates get stuck and for what reasons and how to best provide hints so that I can keep the session productive. When the candidate is stuck for a long time I tend to view this as my failure (nothing is happening == I am not learning anything) unless the candidate is really bad.

What I am trying to say is that preparing good problems for coding interview is a hard task and badly prepared problems are probably why so many leetcode interviews are frustrating and inefficient.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#503

Post by jxramos »

corrral wrote: post #450
synergy20 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ does not tell determination/hard-working-attitude at all, in fact many with high IQ ended up being nobody, as high IQ makes learning relatively easier, most got used to that and just let the 'grit' go. leetcode is the SAT for coding, not perfect, but at least it's close to fair play.

> leetcode is the SAT for coding, not perfect, but at least it's close to fair play. It would be amazing if leetcode were like the SAT, and you could just get one good score and then never think about it again. Anything like that would make it much lower-friction to switch between FAANGs (and friends), though, which I suspect is a big part of why they've settled on doing things this way.

That’s a fascinating idea. Get companies to accept some form of standardized testing and have it be transferable. That would greatly increase the motivation behind its studies I would presume.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#504

Post by corrral »

jxramos wrote: post #503
corrral wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> leetcode is the SAT for coding, not perfect, but at least it's close to fair play. It would be amazing if leetcode were like the SAT, and you could just get one good score and then never think about it again. Anything like that would make it much lower-friction to switch between FAANGs (and friends), though, which I suspect is a big part of why they've settled on doing things this way.

That’s a fascinating idea. Get companies to accept some form of standardized testing and have it be transferable. That would greatly increase the motivation behind its studies I would presume.

I, for one, will probably never subject myself to a FAANG-type interview, but absolutely would study for and take a similar standardized test if it unlocked the same kind of opportunities, and I didn't have to re-take it with every interview.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#505

Post by barbazoo »

brhsagain wrote: post #148

All of these supposed "flaws" of leetcode are by design. Big companies want people who are smart enough to do the work, but obedient enough to put up with all the bullshit that comes with working at a big company. What person better matches that than someone who's able and willing to study for and pass a tech version of the SAT? Every anti-leetcode article I read is some version of "leetcode is bad because it measure…

> You might ask, so why do startups do leetcode too?

Not all big companies do, not all startups do and not all companies of sizes in between do. It's also a little bit up to the candidates to just not put up with the bs and stop the interview process or not even start it in the first place.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#506

Post by nafix »

brhsagain wrote: post #148

All of these supposed "flaws" of leetcode are by design. Big companies want people who are smart enough to do the work, but obedient enough to put up with all the bullshit that comes with working at a big company. What person better matches that than someone who's able and willing to study for and pass a tech version of the SAT? Every anti-leetcode article I read is some version of "leetcode is bad because it measure…

I think comparing it to the Bar exam for Law (and other field's equivalents) is a more apt comparison than the SAT.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#507

Post by zamalek »

PheonixPharts wrote: post #311
lkrubner wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that companies are using leetcode tests for rational reasons goes against everything I've seen and experienced or read about. What I have seen, working at startups for more than 20 years, is irrational, self-destructive behavior, over and over and over again. I've worked with many entrepreneurs who have a few million dollars in the bank, and they have a great idea, but they self-destruct due to two big reaso…

I think it's quite possible that both you and the parent comment are correct. Based on my experience, you are most certainly correct that the companies using leetcode aren't following any line of reasoning, and certainly not one as sophisticated as what the parent is implying. Most decisions made by "leadership" are irrational and self-destructive as you describe there (your book looks very interesting btw). However…

> However what the parent is claiming, as far as the effects of the leetcode interview process is certainly true

And once you hit LeetCode employee critical mass your culture becomes LeetCode employees. Management may have started it, but employees amplify and make it ubiquitous (especially engineers promoted to management/hire/fire).

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#508

Post by rmbyrro »

brhsagain wrote: post #148

All of these supposed "flaws" of leetcode are by design. Big companies want people who are smart enough to do the work, but obedient enough to put up with all the bullshit that comes with working at a big company. What person better matches that than someone who's able and willing to study for and pass a tech version of the SAT? Every anti-leetcode article I read is some version of "leetcode is bad because it measure…

Exactly. It's all about signaling [1]:

"... However, employers do refer to the educational background to differentiate between high-quality workers and low-quality workers (Kasika, 2015). Consequently, individuals with higher-ability use their educational background to gain the "education signals" that allow them to move into high level and high wage positions"

In this case, the "educational background" is shown by solving leetcode-style algos.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299509496_Signaling...

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#509

Post by dekhn »

cadr wrote: post #495
dekhn wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is fairly open and allows me to continue asking significantly more complicated questions. So far, nobody has (for example) asked enough clarifying questions to determine that a bloom counting filter could potentially solve the problem- most people just store ASCII string keys in a hash table, which wastes tons of memory and requires a lookup for every string. So usually I end up after 45 minutes finding t…

But have you had a chance to look back and see if those questions worked out? Like, are they a good predictor for how the person actually performed in the job?

I've only been directly involved in hiring five people and it worked out well for all of those

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#510

Post by thraway11 »

yonaguska wrote: post #179
gitfan86 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a huge inefficiency in the economy that thousands of people are studying and practicing for an entrance exam that has no value in the real work that the companies actually do. But overall that may be a good thing for society. If Google fired all their leet coders and replaced them with real engineers they would not need as many. And the biggest problem may be that there is a limited number of real engin…

In your opinion, what's the difference between a leetcoder and a real engineer? In my mind, a real engineer really shines in the non technical aspect of things, like coordination, communication, prioritization, and getting hard questions answered. But that's just me, I'm curious what everyone else's experiences are.

Are those properties exclusive? Someone has to write std::sort

The problem is not LC. The problem is companies not tailoring the interview to the position.

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