Live data from Hacker News

In defense of cryptocurrency

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

31–40 of 578 posts

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#31

> This is dishonest nonsense: estimates hold that at east 60% of mining energy consumption still comes from fossil sources. Ah so that number keeps going down! It's nice that you all hold Bitcoin/Proof of Work to such high standards that it cleans itself up so fast. I really doubt any other industry can do that or has such great metrics, so keep up the great work everyone.

Even if it would be 0% then it is still wasting energy and removing that consumption would reduce overall waste.

And "green" energy still have massive environmental and economical costs.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#33
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really...the fees for Bitcoin, Ethereum and other L2 options are flat fees and are well under Visa/MC fees most of the time. Might want to look at Western Union and the like too...way way under those fees. Current transaction fee (for 1 cent or a billion dollars) Bitcoin - $1.62 per transaction Ethereum - $3.50 per transaction Ethereum L2 - as low as 12 cents https://l2fees.info/ Here are credit card fees by comp…

From article itself: > That’s why it recently cost $22 (!) to send a single token transaction on Ethereum So Ethereum has prices ranging from 3.5$ to 22$? Great. And vast, vast majority of my transactions would be costlier on Ethereum. I am rarely paying over 267$ in one transaction. 22$ per transactions would result in typical grocery shopping doubling in price. 3.5$ would be noticeable. Also, in bank transfers that…

A small bit of nuance that could explain why the range could be $3.5 to $22 on a given day would be that they could be referring to different token types. The native token of ethereum (Ether) costs a fixed, smaller number of units of computation to send, whereas custom tokens (erc-20) have to do some additional bootstrapping work during transactions and cost more to send.

So there's the units of computation used x "gas price".

But yes, the "gas price" that serves to price congestion on the network is wildly variable due to congestion and low throughput. And that limited throughput is currently a real practical problem as you've pointed out in that the fees are too high.

The answer will likely be in L2s as other people are pointing out. I think one interesting side effect of this ecosystem is it is actually driving new research and application for cryptography (including substantial funding): for example practical uses of zero knowledge proofs.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#34
post #12

If you think Mastercard and Visa fees are too high, fees are higher on Bitcoin. It's like the way Amway victims will try to sell you an $8 tube of toothpaste, "draw circles" to show that 7 people get a cut from that tube of toothpaste and then say "How does Amway bring you great prices on quality products?" (tap whiteboard) "By eliminating the middleman!"

> If you think Mastercard and Visa fees are too high, fees are higher on Bitcoin. Mastercard and Visa charge a percentage (?!), Bitcoin is a fixed amount per transaction. Plus Bitcoin won't deny your ability to make a transaction.

> Mastercard and Visa charge a percentage (?!), Bitcoin is a fixed amount per transaction.

No, Bitcoin transaction fees are dynamic. https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees...

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#35

Cryptocurrency don’t need defense. I think that people outside of cryptocurrency communities don’t realise how accepted the technology is within them. HN is being misled into thinking they are widely hated

The truth is they’re completely irrelevant to 99% of the internet population. Pick the top 20 coins. Look at their respective block explorers and check tx/day, unique address/day, etc. You’ll quickly come to the conclusion that maybe 100M people actually use cryptocurrencies in any meaningful way. The internet has 5B users. Cryptocurrency use is irrelevant.

The cryptocurrency debate in technical circles reminds me of two extremely obscure religious sects screaming at each other while meanwhile the rest of the world doesn’t know either of them exists.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#36
post #7
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really...the fees for Bitcoin, Ethereum and other L2 options are flat fees and are well under Visa/MC fees most of the time. Might want to look at Western Union and the like too...way way under those fees. Current transaction fee (for 1 cent or a billion dollars) Bitcoin - $1.62 per transaction Ethereum - $3.50 per transaction Ethereum L2 - as low as 12 cents https://l2fees.info/ Here are credit card fees by comp…

Well, L2 systems aren't on a blockchain at all, so do they even count? If we get to cherry-pick from whatever money transfer systems exist, it's worth remembering that bank transfers within the Eurozone area are free and practically immediate. What crypto can beat that? Clearly you don't need cryptocurrency to deliver a service that's ideal for consumers, as regulation has achieved it in Europe.

I think the right way to look at a block chain is to think about it as a global computer that enables trusted execution on untrusted hardware.

At present, this global computer is very weak. Cryptocurrencies are a good first program to implement on this computer because each transaction is essentially just adding and subtracting a few numbers. So yes, in some sense, it's crazy that the cost of adding and subtracting a few numbers costs $20.

However, even though these global computers are currently very weak computationally, the new computational model allows for new things to be built. For instance, smart contracts. Using smart contracts and cryptocurrencies, you could easily implement almost every facet of the global financial system. From bank accounts, to money transfers, to bonds, to securities, brokerage services, margin services, options, credit default swaps, etc. Yes, many of these things can be implemented some other way, but blockchains allow anyone with a computer to build something along these lines.

And yes, it's nice that the Eurozone regulated free money transfers. But how much work went into building the Eurozone and passing the required regulations? What if you want to write your own options contract? How long would it take to get regulation passed in the EU to allow free options contracts? Blockchains allow you to build a system akin to the entire EU banking infrastructure from your laptop. Even if it's not quite as good as the current system, I think it's still a cool idea.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#37
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think Mastercard and Visa fees are too high, fees are higher on Bitcoin. Mastercard and Visa charge a percentage (?!), Bitcoin is a fixed amount per transaction. Plus Bitcoin won't deny your ability to make a transaction.

> Mastercard and Visa charge a percentage (?!), Bitcoin is a fixed amount per transaction. No, Bitcoin transaction fees are dynamic. https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees...

That doesn't invalidate what I said, although maybe I should have said "flat" instead of "fixed" to be more precise.

You pay a flat fee per transaction with Bitcoin, you pay a percentage fee with Mastercard and Visa. Yes, the Bitcoin fee changes with time based on a market. The Mastercard and Visa percentage changes based on how much they like you.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#38
post #21
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really...the fees for Bitcoin, Ethereum and other L2 options are flat fees and are well under Visa/MC fees most of the time. Might want to look at Western Union and the like too...way way under those fees. Current transaction fee (for 1 cent or a billion dollars) Bitcoin - $1.62 per transaction Ethereum - $3.50 per transaction Ethereum L2 - as low as 12 cents https://l2fees.info/ Here are credit card fees by comp…

Off topic but I’m really curious, why are these taxes a percentage? What justifies paying $0.1 for every $10 transfer, but $1 for $100? Is it more complicated to move $100 than it is to move $10? In the end it’s still a single transaction, right?

Form of price discrimination?

Charging the same price for 1$ and 1000$ transaction would either make 1$ transaction not viable (BTC/ETH is doing this) or would be overall less profitable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

Also, insuring against fraud is actually more expensive for more expensive transactions. And CC provide some minimal service here.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#39

It is dishonest to mention > proof-of-time-and-space construction used by Chia as reason to reduce importance of induced waste. Chia just wastes something different and is not improvement in any form.

Not really. It manifestly wastes something with, at worst, a much longer runway toward making the planet uninhabitable for humans. That's the important point about PoW waste.

Re: In defense of cryptocurrency

#40
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said it's "dishonest to mention." The author is the mentioner. If the mention is dishonest, then it necessarily follows that the author is dishonest.

> if the mention is dishonest, then it necessarily follows that the author is dishonest. Not really. If someone did something stupid it does not follow they are stupid. The same for evil, dishonest or irritating acts. Though maybe "weird" would be better than "dishonest"? I posted in this form in comments on the original article.

The issue with "dishonest" is that honesty implies intent. A statement has no intent, so it can't be honest or dishonest. A statement can only be right or wrong. An author can be honest or dishonest. An honest author can be wrong, and a dishonest author can be right. But to say that a statement is "dishonest" is to call the author, in the context of writing the statement, dishonest.
Post reply on HN