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Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

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Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#381

Post by _gabe_ »

hexa00 wrote: post #195

This is crazy and needs to stop indeed it's like you have: - A degree (In which you've proven you can understand these algos and spent 4 years studying) I'm not going to redo all that in 1 week before your stupid puzzle! - Experience (That has to be worth something it's not like everyone is lying about it) - You may have open source contributions But no, some companies will not even start to look at that or not look…

> A degree (In which you've proven you can understand these algos and spent 4 years studying)

Unfortunately this means next to nothing anymore. I have a bachelor's degree in CS and Math, and I found it very useful. However, I host a fairly large community and provide tutorials on coding projects. I've had several people working on a masters thesis in CS reach out to me because they're following one of my tutorials for the thesis. They then ask a very basic question that indicates they don't know how a package manager works, or how to look up documentation on a library. I think these two tasks are some of the most basic programming tasks available, and if you can make it through 5-6 years of college in CS and still not have the most basic understanding of this, then a degree means absolutely nothing anymore.

Some more anecdata, I've had several friends who graduated with me and can hardly code. It's unfortunate, but I think degrees are just an expensive piece of useless paper that tells you absolutely nothing about the individuals abilities.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#382

Post by dangus »

yolo69420 wrote: post #370
brhsagain wrote: post #148

All of these supposed "flaws" of leetcode are by design. Big companies want people who are smart enough to do the work, but obedient enough to put up with all the bullshit that comes with working at a big company. What person better matches that than someone who's able and willing to study for and pass a tech version of the SAT? Every anti-leetcode article I read is some version of "leetcode is bad because it measure…

this post is way too optimistic. you're implying the people making the decision that leetcode tests are used are competent enough to know they suck but still use them for the soft-factors you mention. I would bet essentially all of my money that instead they're simply incompetent and actually think these tests are good at testing ability. that being said, everybody talks about like leetcode tests for a week straight…

I can boil this incompetence you describe down even further: employers and their employees don’t want to spend time making their own interview challenges.

It’s actually pretty hard and time consuming to come up with a mock scenario and evaluate it, especially when you also have your regular work to do.

Leetcode is seen as good enough and all the effort is on the interviewee. The current employees don’t see the pain and suckage. They already have a job and it’s not their problem.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#383

Post by hnov »

UncleMeat wrote: post #343
sinop2 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems unlikely, given that they’ve implemented an Xcode project generator for iOS apps built with their build system: https://tulsi.bazel.build/ No one’s running Xcode on the web or on a Linux machine.

The mac build system is wild . It is still all done remotely with a farm of macs running xcode. You still don't build code for running on macs on your local machine.

You actually do, what Tulsi generates is an XCode project that has shell script build steps that call out to bazel. Bazel underneath the covers will end up calling the clang that comes with XCode.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#384

Post by Bayko »

brandall10 wrote: post #307
danaris wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leetcode doesn't measure "smart and determined to succeed". It measures "has enough extra time and energy to devote to practicing pointless brainteasers for weeks." In other words, whatever it's intended to do, one of its primary functions in practice is to screen out people who are bright, driven...and poor, working long hours and trying to keep themselves and/or their families going.

Weeks? There are stories on Blind and the LC forums of people taking upwards of a year with pretty hefty real-life constraints. And why wouldn't they, given the opportunity to essentially double comp over standard industry jobs? That's a life changing opportunity if you're in a somewhat unfortunate life situation. That it's a bit of a sacrifice is the point. If you're naturally smart enough this stuff comes quickly,…

Exactly. I honestly think no one is entitled more than software developers. Not even that chick from Mean Girls. Hell which other similarly paying field can you double compensation in like three or four months. Six months if you are slow or have a demanding life. Lawyers? Hahahaha. Doctor? Hahahaha. At least with LC there is an end goal. Those 75 questions. Or well I think 150 questions. I hate LC personally but also am able to recognize that it is a silver platter handed to me. The article above mentions all the negatives. Ya bro who didn't know them?

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#385

Post by corrral »

moduspol wrote: post #207
brhsagain wrote: post #148

All of these supposed "flaws" of leetcode are by design. Big companies want people who are smart enough to do the work, but obedient enough to put up with all the bullshit that comes with working at a big company. What person better matches that than someone who's able and willing to study for and pass a tech version of the SAT? Every anti-leetcode article I read is some version of "leetcode is bad because it measure…

It'd be a fun social experiment if one of the big tech companies replaced the leetcode-style rounds with something arbitrary. Let's say: The "jumping jacks" round. You have to turn your webcam on and do 100 jumping jacks in 60 seconds. Only then will you potentially advance to the next round. The person watching on the other end can evaluate how far over 100 you got, whether or not your form matches best practice, an…

I'm pretty sure that most of the benefit of FAANG-type interviews is narrowing the candidate pool to almost exclusively people who'd be OK to hire. IOW they could just hire randomly from the pool with no leetcoding at all, and likely do about as well.

The trouble is, they actually can't do that because then the pool would change, quickly.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#386

Post by bradlys »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #187
kanonieer wrote: post #152

Considering the normalization of spending hundreds of hours grinding LC questions and the industry built around whiteboard interview preparation, my (n=1) conclusion is that LC interviews is not about technical assessment at all. It's an assessment that's designed to find people who are ready to submit to an endless grind with little to no skepticism. Developers who question the technical usefulness of LC interviews…

> Considering the normalization of spending hundreds of hours grinding LC questions and the industry built around whiteboard interview preparation, my (n=1) conclusion is that LC interviews is not about technical assessment at all. The “hundreds of hours” grinding LC is largely for juniors without experience. I don’t know any senior engineers who had to grind LeetCode like that for their FAANG interviews.

Disagree. I’ve interviewed quite a few people who are prepping and are senior. Even for those who have been at FAANG before - it’s common to spend multiple months prepping nights and weekends. Taking a full two months off just to study is uncommon. But if you think just doing an hour a day is sufficient - you’re wrong. Most candidates (even senior ones) fail with that level of studying.

I know because I’ve talked to dozens if not hundreds of people who have tried to get into FAANG with that level of study. It definitely takes more for the average person. Some people get lucky and spend maybe two weeks studying for a couple hours a day. But they’re lucky and shouldn’t be considered the norm.

Also - LC and the whole process is very fungible. You can say they did well if you happen to like the candidate for some other reason and you can knock them down if you don’t like them either. I’ve seen it go both ways where terrible candidates get offers and amazing ones get rejected. Ultimately - LC is still only part of the interview. If you are really handsome and charming - you might get an offer even if you’re not very good at LC.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#387

Post by cadr »

dekhn wrote: post #377
redisman wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never did a CS degree so much of the learning was decently useful but it also took me years

I only took 1 CS class in college- Cybernetics with Huffman. I failed! So clearly, that was a strong predictor for my future 12 year career at google (where I failed to do quicksort, or virtual ants problems). Nowadays I take a lot of extra time to come up with questions that aren't in leetcode, are easier than leetcode, and give far more signal than any leetcode would, for anything except for a 10X Staff Engineer.

Can you share what kind of things these are that give far more signal?

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#388

Post by kristopolous »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #141
bruce343434 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it kept happening for seniors and people with a lot of experience Why would this be? Old brains not being as "flexible" to think up novel solutions?

You think LeetCode problems require novel solutions? It's the exact opposite: they're great for new grads who just spent 4+ years cramming for exams.

In that way it also acts as a legal form of ageism.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#389

Post by game_the0ry »

twawaaay wrote: post #93

As an interviewer I can tell you are absolutely missing the point. Why would I ever want to hire a developer without seeing them perform? And since being able to program a small piece of code to specification is such a basic, important part of development, why would it be bad for me to verify if you can do it? If your friends are so good developers, why would they have a problem reasoning around a relatively simple,…

> As an interviewer I can tell you are absolutely missing the point.

As an interviewee, I would not want to work with you.

You lack full conviction in your beliefs - you literally had to create a throw away account bc you knew you were going to get downvoted.

Re: Stop Interviewing with Leet Code

#390

Post by dragonwriter »

kristopolous wrote: post #388
skeeter2020 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think LeetCode problems require novel solutions? It's the exact opposite: they're great for new grads who just spent 4+ years cramming for exams.

In that way it also acts as a legal form of ageism.

Or, perhaps more accurately, a layer of plausible deniability to cover illegal age discrimination.
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