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Allegations of past and present Internet crime haunt Airbnb co-founder

venturebeat.com

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Re: Allegations of past and present Internet crime haunt Airbnb co-founder

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read closer. It's not an attack. It's an analysis. I have affection for both Aaron and Nathan. Things are not so black and white.

It's cyber bullying. Don't take my word for it, look it up.

Writing a fact based analysis of the personality of a public figure is not bullying. I have a lot of respect for Aaron both personally and professionally. In fact I used the words "moral perfection" to describe him.

Re: Allegations of past and present Internet crime haunt Airbnb co-founder

#52
The theme of the original blog post upon which this article is based is that "Silicon Valley criminals should be held to account for their actions" just as those who are the focus of Occupy Wall Street's protestations should be. This is, in essence, a political argument supported by the blog author's view that an elite few control and dominate society and are able to abuse its laws in order to promote their economic gain.

A few thoughts on this:

1. The subject matter here concerns the idea that laws are selectively enforced to favor a few elites and, whether one agrees with this or not, this is really political subject matter that is not proper for HN.

2. The "crime" allegedly being committed by Airbnb today rests solely on the blog author's assertions that: (a) Airbnb and many other prominent tech startups are handling money in ways that violate California's money transmittal statutes and (b) that fact in turn violates federal laws that make it a crime to commit such violations. While it is conceivable that the laws mentioned might some day be interpreted in this way, it is a huge stretch - indeed, even a frivolous assertion - to say that Airbnb is committing "crimes" simply by operating its business in accordance with its prescribed business model. As matters now stand, however, this is only a layman's conclusion about a complex body of laws - and one that is not supported by the actions or interpretations of those charged with enforcing such laws. In this context, there is no basis for calling anybody here "Silicon Valley criminals" unless it is in a generalized political sense (e.g., the robber barons were "looters and criminals") - that is, through use of the word "criminals" in a hyperbolic, non-specific manner. This is really another way of saying that the subject matter of the post was as much political as anything else.

3. It is irresponsible for VentureBeat to take this underlying material and concoct a headline stating that "allegations of past and present Internet crime haunt Airbnb co-founder." The clear implication of this headline is that there are serious allegations of criminal misconduct currently affecting this particular individual and that is objectively false. No crimes of any kind have been charged. No activity is being engaged in by this individual that has even remotely raised concerns by the public authorities of criminal activity. The relevant activities are said to be "criminal" based solely on a lay interpretation of laws that is not supported by the relevant regulators, by existing case law, or by any criminal enforcement actions of prosecutors. The picture painted by the headline, then, is plainly misleading if not false.

4. The factual background as recited by the blog author may be true or not. Only the persons involved really know. Taken as a whole, the facts themselves are here dwarfed by the problematic legal conclusions set forth as fact by this piece. I would therefore call it a "hit piece" or unfair attack as presented by VentureBeat. The blog author made an essentially political argument in his piece; this follow-on piece, though, attempts to recast that argument as legal fact about alleged crimes and this goes way over the line in my judgment.

Anybody who thinks I am being unfair in so describing the VentureBeat piece need only imagine like allegations being made about you simply because you ran a successful Silicon Valley venture that handled money in some manner, whether as payments or deposits or otherwise. If you don't mind being called a "criminal" when there is no hint that you are doing anything at all to violate current laws, then more power to you. For the rest of us, I think "unfair" is a very understated way of describing it.

Re: Allegations of past and present Internet crime haunt Airbnb co-founder

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow! This is really low. Is this the best counter argument to his accusations?

It's not a counter argument. I strongly believe Aaron is telling the truth about the porn spamming. However I also believe it does not make the perpetrator a bad cofounder.

"a bad cofounder" from what perspective?

Re: Allegations of past and present Internet crime haunt Airbnb co-founder

#54
post #25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Haha, funny. But in this case it is the refutation of the argument that has the fallacy. So there is the original argument that he's a spammer, which hasn't been refuted. And there is the ad hominem counter-argument which is refuted by being ad hominem. So I think I am still justified in believing the original argument without contrary evidence. So really you are profering a fallacist's fallacist's fallacy. :)

So there is the original argument that he's a spammer, which hasn't been refuted.

Are you aware that the burden of proof rests on the claimant? Unless you have convincing evidence supporting a claim, you are not logically justified in accepting it.

Re: Allegations of past and present Internet crime haunt Airbnb co-founder

#55

People insulting Aaron Greenspan just don't understand him. If you want to understand him, just imagine a very sensitive precocious child raised on a rigid deontological morality by highly rigid and argumentative parents. This values system is characterized by a rigid logic that mainly focuses on things that are disallowed. For instance, lying is disallowed, betrayal is disallowed, and perfect obedience to official r…

So a desire to follow the law is some kind of moral failing all of a sudden? Sorry but that is bullshit.

There is nothing wrong with following the law and trying to get others to follow the law and reporting lawbreaking. I am sure you will appreciate this next time you get mugged.

(By the way I have to say I am not sure I agree with Mr. Greenspan's determination that Airbnb and Facebook are unlicensed money transmitters. But there is no reason to attack anyone because they simply want to follow the law.)

Re: Allegations of past and present Internet crime haunt Airbnb co-founder

#58
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure that this comment adds anything to the discussion. You can argue that Blecharczyk is reformed, that AirBnB is not currently spamming people, or even that the only reason he is bringing this up now is to generate interest in his anti-Money Transmission Act crusade. Insulting him does not explain why he might be wrong. Disclosure: I knew Greenspan in college, but I wasn't important enough to be included i…

I doubt the personal ethics of founders sway investors much (if at all), but perhaps the world would be a better place if they did. Either way, setting up a custom hardware/software stack to spam/peddle pornography as an 18 year old freshman is a pretty impressive feat of ingenuity, but it reflects poor judgement - by an 18 year old (whodathunkit!) Who knows what guy is like now. He might be a saint. Probably not tho…

If investors took ethics into account when picking startups, they would make decisions in the opposite direction from the one you are hoping for.

Re: Allegations of past and present Internet crime haunt Airbnb co-founder

#59
While it is easy to focus on the messenger being annoying, his message does have a reputable citation(found on his blog): http://web.archive.org/web/20030512215305/http://www.spamhau...

Mind you, innocent or well meaning persons can end up on Spamhaus list, but this does not seem to be the case here.

All it means is that Airbnb quite likely knew about the Craigslist spamming done by their affiliates. Legally they seem to be in the clear, but morally is another matter.

Re: Allegations of past and present Internet crime haunt Airbnb co-founder

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's illegal in quite a lot of countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-mail_spam_legislation_by_coun...

How do you tell that it is categorically illegal to send unsolicited emails of any type? Of course, you realize that could, at an extreme, mean that you cannot send a personal email to someone else you have previously not corresponded with. Spamming refers to sending unsolicited email. Sending unsolicited emails isn't illegal; sending unsolicited emails that do not adhere to the law is illegal in America.

In Belgium it is indeed illegal to send unsolicited mails, IF it is sent for publicity reasons. The law includes a definition of publicity, the gist of which is "promoting goods, services or a company". It's the sender's task to prove that promotional mail was solicited.
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