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Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

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Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know for a fact that where I vote it is impossible to vote more than once (or close to, Berlin managed to fuck up voting last year for some reason). How is it impossible? Everyone is centrally registered with their primary residence. Based on these records, invitations are sent out prior to elections. With that invitation, or passport or ID, you show up at your voting local (of which there are plenty, the school ju…

How would it be "impossible" to vote more than once when the volunteers who are enforcing that have been paid off to allow it to happen? That's exactly what happened in this case.

Sure, and with hundreds of those places, and at least 4 volunteers per place, just how many votes do you think you can stuff? Plus any statistically significant deviation will be spotted. But besides theory we never had more then the odd case affecting a handful of votes every handful of elections for almost 80 years, so history proofs that for all practical reasons it is 1) not happening 2) impossible to do at a scale that would impact results and 3) easy to spot.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree, our elections are shit. They're designed that way so that interested and connected individuals can manipulate them. The most successful ways of doing so are the time honored traditions of gerrymandering and voter suppression. My problem with a lot of popular right-wing complaints are that they are rarely directed at those things, they're directed at things like vote by mail which helps alleviate the latte…

> vote by mail which helps alleviate the latter while, as far as I can tell, not being significantly worse than voting in person for security. How anyone could state this with any particular confidence is beyond me. The truth is, when someone votes by mail, you have no idea who filled in the ballot. How could anyone possibly collect metrics? No one can possibly say what's going on, unless you trust the populace at la…

> How anyone could state this with any particular confidence is beyond me. The truth is, when someone votes by mail, you have no idea who filled in the ballot.

How do you know who filled in the ballot at the polling place? All I would need is to show up and know someone else's name and address and I could vote for them. Vote by mail isn't any worse than that and is possibly better because there's a stronger confidence that whoever filled it out actually lives at that address. As I recall from my own mail-in ballot, it is also signed by myself and a witness.

> Honestly, mail-in ballots are very difficult for me. They get mailed to you, and by the time I finally have a chance to sit down, I often have to go searching for where it went / whether my toddler put it somewhere. On the other hand, when I voted in person, I would just go to the polling booth in the morning and be done.

The poling place is open on exactly one day, and you have to wait in line for your turn. Have to go to work that day? Well, tough shit. For some people this is simple, but for quite a lot of people in overcrowded polling places and inflexible working conditions it is not. The option of a mail in ballot provides a convenience for people less privileged with the ability to make it to a polling place during a sub-24 hour window.

Notice I said option. If filling out a ballot is difficult for you, you can still do it by showing up in person.

> One year, I didn't even receive my ballot, and it was difficult to get a replacement.

Perfect is the enemy of good.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You find a bunch of people that can't or wouldn't vote and collect their automatically mailed ballots, fill them out and have them dropped off in boxes. That's one way to illegally harvest votes. One that almost certainly occurred in nursing homes around the country in the last election.

The first step to processing mail ballots is checking that the signature matches the voter's known signature (usually submitted at the time of voter registration). Are you proposing a conspiracy where crooks are somehow forging hundreds (if not thousands) of signatures? And there's no paper trail of communications or money changing hands to coordinate it all?

Signatures are, frankly, a bad way to determine if a ballot is valid or not. People's signatures change all the time and there's not exactly a science in determining whether or not two are the same. It's ultimately up to the counter to make that determination.

Otherwise, I agree with your point. The reason ballot harvesting is much less of an issue than made out is because there's a vast paper trail with each mail in ballot cast.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#354
post #30

Americans have a really tough time with the notion of materiality. America is such a big country that, as a matter of statistics, anything that can happen is happening. That doesn’t mean it happens often enough to call into question our basic systems. In this case it’s the right that fails to grasp materiality. Yes, people vote illegally, ballot boxes get stuffed, their is collusion, etc. No, it doesn’t happen often…

Compared to America, many other democracies manage to get by with far less fraud. For example, election fraud is effectively unheard of in France; the system is so robust that even in very close elections there is never any real drama about recounts or such. For a country that considers democracy to be fundamental to its identity, the US's performance is embarrasing in comparison.

If you don't start out with one person, one vote then I think you should not be calling yourself a democracy to begin with. Votes from different persons should be exactly equal in weight.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It would have taken roughly 80k votes to switch the 2016 election from Trump to Clinton. However people had no idea of that beforehand. What if they paused ballot counting on the night of Election Day, assessed how many votes they needed, and worked overnight to get the votes needed, reporting new totals the next day? Wouldn’t that solve the issue you raise here?

Election returns centers have a lot of people in it. You'd need a pretty sizeable conspiracy to carry out an attack you describe. At the very least, such a conspiracy would produce some kind of written communications or financial transactions. You'd need pretty good coordination to pull it off, and people are neither psychic nor capable of playing verbal "telephone" at scale.

[deleted]

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#356
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even changing the outcome of a Presidential election doesn't require any kind of sweeping, nationwide fraud campaign. Just enough well-placed ones where the vote will be close enough that the fraud doesn't have to be too large. This only looks true when viewed retroactively. It would have taken roughly 80k votes to switch the 2016 election from Trump to Clinton. However people had no idea of that beforehand. That 80…

unsure the exact math here, but certainty isn't the required bar for an investment, just positive EROI .

I wasn't addressing a question of whether election fraud happens or the motivation for it. I was specifically criticizing the idea that "changing the outcome of a Presidential election" is possible without a "sweeping, nationwide fraud campaign".

The EROI doesn't matter in that context because the goal is a singular binary event. It either was enough to sway the election and it qualifies for this discussion or it wasn't enough and therefore doesn't support OPs original point.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#357
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> make it easier for everyone to get an ID. The same people that push for voter ID also make it difficult for everyone to get an ID. Those people also have a stranglehold on their state legislatures, and executive agencies that assign IDs. They also push for other laughably biased voting rules, like only allowing mail-in ballots from demographics that vote for them (65+). [1] It's not about fairness for them, it's ab…

does this notion solely come from people who live in states with ridiculous taxes on everything? here in SD it just cost me somewhere around $22 to get my driver's license renewed. when I lived in WA I went to the DMV with a friend who had to get her license renewed one day and I said screw it I might as well get a WA license while I'm here. my jaw fell to the floor when, at the end of the process, they said it would…

> does this notion solely come from people who live in states with ridiculous taxes on everything?

You're missing the point. Why should you need an ID to vote? It doesn't make sense.

> $22 is not hard for anyone to save, especially with all the generous welfare programs we have.

Please. It is a barrier that exists. Not everyone has $22.00. They still deserve access to their human rights. Welfare doesn't fix this.

> hell, if it's that big of a deal, then start some charity program to pay for people to get legal ID!

Charities are subject to laws and attack. This is a common voter suppression tactic. It should not require a charity to exercise fundamental human rights.

Voting is a fundamental right. It should be as easy as possible to vote. You do not need ID cards to prevent voter fraud. That is as simple as cross referencing registration with votes and then investigating differences.

Voting systems need to be anonymous and accessible. Accessible both in terms of literally voting and understanding how the system works so it is trusted. We already invented systems for this, they work. Voter fraud is a made up problem and voter IDs wouldn't stop it even if it existed.

Voter ID is a red herring. It's a convenient way to suppress votes.

> In the 2002 New Hampshire Senate election phone jamming scandal, Republican officials attempted to reduce the number of Democratic voters by paying professional telemarketers in Idaho to make repeated hang-up calls to the telephone numbers used by the Democratic Party's ride-to-the-polls phone lines on election day. By tying up the lines, voters seeking rides from the Democratic Party would have more difficulty reaching the party to ask for transportation to and from their polling places.

To your "start a charity" argument above, good luck if the phone lines are jammed.

> Michigan Republican state legislator John Pappageorge was quoted as saying, "If we do not suppress the Detroit vote, we're going to have a tough time in this election."

Well there's a smoking gun.

> In 2006, four employees of candidate John Kerry's campaign were convicted of slashing the tires of 25 vans rented by the Wisconsin state Republican Party which were to be used for driving Republican voters and monitors to the polls on Election Day 2004. They received jail terms of four to six months.

Again, good luck to a charity countering literal vandalism.

> Democratic voters receiving calls incorrectly informing them voting will lead to arrest.

> Widespread calls fraudulently claiming to be "[Democratic Senate candidate Jim] Webb Volunteers," falsely telling voters their voting location had changed.

> Fliers paid for by the Republican Party, stating "SKIP THIS ELECTION" that allegedly attempted to suppress African-American turnout.

> On October 30, 2008, a federal appeals court ordered the reinstatement of 5,500 voters wrongly purged from the voter rolls by the state, in response to an ACLU of Michigan lawsuit which questioned the legality of a Michigan state law requiring local clerks to nullify the registrations of newly registered voters whenever their voter identification cards are returned by the post office as undeliverable.

Ever have trouble getting mail to a new address? Can you imagine it happening? Hope the USPS is well funded in your area.

> In Louisville, Georgia, in October 2018, Black senior citizens were told to get off a bus that was to have taken them to a polling place for early voting. The bus trip was supposed to have been part of the "South Rising" bus tour sponsored by the advocacy group Black Voters Matter. A clerk of the local Jefferson County Commission allegedly called the intended voters' senior center to claim that the bus tour constituted "political activity," which is barred at events sponsored by the county.

Really hard not to use the "R" word here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_Unite....

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Treason" is one of the few crimes which is defined in the US constitution. It has a fairly narrow definition which does not include election fraud: >Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in o…

The person you are responding to is clearly suggesting their personal belief that election crimes are so antithetical to American values that it constitutes a crime on par with treason.

Fine, but the system that they're claiming to speak in service of directly contradicts that belief in its foundational charter.

The people commiting this type of fraud make similar mental leaps about the definitions of words like "treason" and "patriotism" to justify their actions. It's not a good road to follow.

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have electronic voting machines print a paper record which can be counted in case of issues.

we could even have generated guid on the paper records that you can look up in a database to make sure your vote is being recorded correctly, without exposing any identifying information.

It's very difficult to provide an easy to use vote receipt that can't also be used for tampering (threats or bribes for the wrong/right votes).

(Maybe I am reading too much meaning into "recorded correctly")

Re: Former U.S. congressman, operative pleads guilty to election fraud charges

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised it is even elected. I was an election judge when I was 18 in Illinois as part of high school project. You just sign up and attend a 2 hour class. It was fun. The other judge at my poll location was a guy who served in the Wehrmacht during WWII (was conscripted at age 14). But I easily could have stuffed the box. Most people don't vote. At 7:45pm, you could just vote for people who didn't show up. Nobody…

There should be something stopping you; the voter rolls, and list of names that voted and not, are public. The press could absolutely contact a sample of the voter rolls and verify - "I voted", "I didn't". Any discrepancy (well, any time there's more than one or two, because people do lie or simply forget) should be a scandal.

There are people who did this for the 2020 elections. They found voters registered to empty lots all over Arizona. Steven Crowder, I think the guys name was.
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