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The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

teachforamerica.org

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Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#531
post #51

There are so many topics that are hard to talk about nowadays without getting into politics but politics and structural inequality are at the core of this. For the benefit of non-US readers, know that how the US funds public education (K-12) is rather unique. It's done through property taxes essentially. Depending on your state and city your property taxes can vary a lot with the same value property. But what this me…

>But what this means is the wealthier localities have more tax revenue and thus better schools. This can be a vicious cycle of improving property values by having better schools and thus generating more tax revenue and so on. No. This is a complete red-herring. Every school in the US is good enough to provide quality education. Every school in the US is staffed by good, well-trained teachers. Every child gets free te…

> Every school in the US is staffed by good, well-trained teachers

Unfortunately, this really isn't the case. There are many good teachers, and most teachers are genuinely passionate, hard workers. But many teachers get into teaching not because of a mastery of their subject matter or even teaching but because they want to be paid babysitters, more or less.

E.g. in Canada, which has similar issues, Ontario recently axed its math certification test for public school teachers because too many teachers were failing it and because it had "a disproportionate adverse impact on entry to the teaching profession for racialized teacher candidates." And, for demonstrative purposes, a sample test that prospective teachers were failing:

https://www.mathproficiencytest.ca/#/en/sample-questions/1

But there's not an easy solution. ~25% of test takers were failing it (and more for "racialized" candidates), and most people don't want to become teachers because it's a terrible work environment.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#532

Alright, I don't imagine this will be a common take here but here goes. I am a product of the New York City public school system. I have spent the majority of my life as a student in it. The New York city public school system is both the largest public school system in the country and the most segregated. The argument about removing gifted programs are built on the faulty assumptions that the students in those progra…

I guess the problem is how the gifted programs are being executed rather than their existence then. When I read "gifted programs" I certainly would think that race or social background has zero influence on acceptance (even though they do influence kids access to education before getting there). Reading what you said it seems logical that removing these programs is overall a good thing. But the way I see it the discu…

> But the way I see it the discussion about supporting kids that are truly gifted shouldn't be dismissed

Sure! Yes! We are looking for a fair allocation of resources to actually give schools the ability to meet every student where they are and to engage them wherever that is. All teachers want to be able to meet kids where they are, wherever they are, but they don't have the resources to.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not who you were replying to, but my grandmother was a teacher and specifically wanted to work in one of these schools to try to help the students in bad situations. She stopped teaching a while ago, but much of this likely still applies. Basically, the students frequently don't do their homework, students would just not show up to class or outright just drop out, students misbehave more frequently (including violent…

IMO the central problem with US schools isn't the schools . It's our broken policing and justice system, our bad social safety net, and our poor worker protection, among other things like the ongoing consequences of racist city planning. We will never move the needle very much, on school quality, by focusing on schools.

I'm not sure the broken policing and justice system account for a culture which glorifies violence, rejects education, promotes drug use, and encourages irresponsible procreation. In fact these things are relatively recent changes in poor urban culture, this isn't the mindset poor people had in the 50's (when policing and justice were much, much worse).

I'm not saying that these things are inherently "wrong" (save the violence), only that they can't be expected to produce the same outcomes as cultures which highly value education, nuclear family, sobriety, and hard work. This holds true no matter how much money you add. Any attempt to equalize outcomes without confronting this core reason is doomed.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've taken a close look at the numbers for individual schools in my tri-state area, (NY, NJ, PA) and from my estimate it seems that lower performing schools far and away have the highest per student budgets.

Yeah this is a fact. I moved from SF to a suburb of Sacramento. Our SF school was absolutely horrible (and the main reason we moved). Our suburban school has a much smaller per-student budget but the student body is mainly from families where the parents are skilled tradesmen, white collar workers (mainly Asian or Indian), and state government workers. These families instill very different values in their kids than w…

This comment is such peak HN. Maybe the people in SF don't care about these decadent bourgeois values that are so easily espoused, and would rather do their rightful part in fighting structures of oppression and injustice!

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever had a 3rd grader threaten to stab you, and look like they really mean it? A second grader call you the c-word? That kind of thing happening basically every day, often multiple times a day? Credible threats of gang violence on a regular basis. School-wide lockdowns with some regularity due to threats of violence, or violence that has actually occurred. Admin with extremely limited options to deal with any of this…

You didn't even get to the covid restrictions, and parents calling teachers anti-American and traitors and Nazis for supporting mask and vaccine mandates. Teachers were getting death threats after being told they were "essential workers" for a year. Meanwhile they have to use their own funds to buy their own body armor, because they have to buy that along with pencils and paper now.

Teachers are not always 100% sympathetic. When courts in Illinois shot down school mask mandates, teachers at a high school near me retaliated by sequestering unmasked students in a room and not teaching them.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#536
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't we just admit it and quit trying to make people who are unique the same? America keeps conflating equity for equality.

[flagged]

The thing those conservatives don't seem to get is you can't know if you have equality of opportunity without monitoring and responding to equality of outcomes.

For example, say you implement a literacy test for voting. Everyone has the opportunity to learn how to read, but as we all know those that grade the literacy tests can fail people for arbitrary (or rather intrinsic) reasons. You'd catch this by measuring the outcomes, not just blindly assuming that the opportunities are enough.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even close to true. Going into a trade is a great way to get into a comfortable middle class life. And in those trades, you'll commonly find people who did horrible in school, and thought they were idiots because of it.

Not everyone is cut out to be a plumber or an electrician. The ultimate goal should be to provide better education for everyone so that all students have as many available options by the time they're ready to pick a career path. Also, I hate these comments from white collar folks about blue collar jobs being the answer to everything. Yes we need them, but we also need to be honest that the average plumber is going to…

I never said blue collar trade was the answer to everything. I said that the school system is not the answer to everything.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subject categories such as "math" are also very broad. I struggled with math in elementary school, because it was mostly about memorization. 3 + 5 = 8. 6 x 7 = 42. Learning and being able to spit out those facts as quickly and flawlessly as possible was most of what I remember about math as a young kid. I was never good at that. I still am not good at that. I got Cs and sometimes lower grades in math. Somehow, though…

You struggled with math in elementary school because of deeply flawed teaching. Even at that early age, it's not hard to understand that "3 + 5 = 8" is not something that you'd need to literally memorize. Of course, the fact that teaching quality can vary to such an extent is itself noteworthy.

> it's not hard to understand that "3 + 5 = 8" is not something that you'd need to literally memorize

‘Literally memorize’ as opposed to what? Counting your fingers?

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#539
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“…it is unacceptable to have eighth grade Algebra I classes and gifted education programs that disproportionately exclude Black and brown children.” a definition of exclude is “deny (someone) access to or bar (someone) from a place, group, or privilege.” no one is barring access to these classes on the basis race. can you even imagine that? “sorry, you’re not allowed to take this class; you’re black.” it’s like every…

What you don't understand is that advanced classes have limited seats available compared to students who want them.

And do they choose who gets into the class by race?

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#540

Why is this site becoming more and more infested with politics? It's going to end up suffocating anything actually worthwhile

It's always worse in (US) election years, and I think it's inevitable for all online discussion sites. When people conflate their identity with their political beliefs, everything becomes political.

That said, HN has historically done a very good job in policing this through the vigilance of its admin team. I wouldn't be surprised if this discussion pales in comparison to the stuff they've axed.

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