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The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

teachforamerica.org

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Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#511
post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gifted programs are "unacceptably white" Curious if they're also "unacceptably asian" - the author doesn't seem to think so, or at least didn't feel the need to say so.

Asians are white when it's unhelpful to the narrative for them to be a minority. See also "underrepresented minority", which translates to: non-Asian minority.

Hate to suggest this but I was wondering if I was diversity hire lol, since my skills are definitely subpar but I still got in somehow. I can do soft skills but yeah. -- anyway I'll take it, I need it.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#512
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always quipped that the idea that the highest property taxes fund the poorest areas, and vice-versa. While not feasible, the current situation is absurd.

> While not feasible Well, that's effectively what happens in European systems, where schooling is basically run entirely by the State and funding is mostly distributed on a per-pupil basis - higher-income taxpayers effectively subsidize poorer areas. So it is, in fact, feasible. But Americans would probably call that illiberal or something.

> But Americans would probably call that illiberal or something.

Most Americans would call that pretty much how things actually happen here, too.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also you tend to find daycare programs for teenage mothers at poorer schools. Rich parents get their children abortions, while poor children give birth to their babies.

This is an oft-repeated myth, and in fact the opposite is true. "there are substantial disparities in abortion rates in the United States, with low-income women and women of color having higher rates than affluent and White women" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3780732/

If the incidence rate of teenage pregnancy amongst low-income women is significantly higher, then women amongst this group can simultaneously have more abortions AND be teenaged mothers completing schooling vs other groups.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my kids' books and chromebooks are always nice and new There's plenty of evidence that parental attitudes are a big factor: "Middle-class pupils do better because parents and schools put more effort into their education, according to a study [..] factors studied were the parents' interest in their children's education, measured by, for example, whether they read to their children or attended meetings with teachers"…

We no longer read to our kids, and it makes me both happy and sad. Happy because they are voracious readers on their own, but sad because damn, childhood goes by quick...

Reading to my two-year-old every naptime/bedtime is one of my favorite parts of parenting. Appreciate this comment reminding me to really enjoy these precious moments!

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#515

The gifted program helped me immensely in highschool, although the hour or two I actually spent in the gifted classroom was mostly wasted playing board games. However being in that program gave me the ability to switch classes/teachers whenever one wasn't working for me, usually because some teachers could maintain a civil classroom and other teachers let the students run wild and taught nothing. Because I was in the…

"Civility" sounds eerily close to a sort of social credit score. All it takes is one teacher to mark you down on civility and then you're ruined. This type of program sounds like it would lead to offering the best education and opportunities to the most docile and willing to accept authority.

Not great attributes to select for in a world where we desperately need independent thinking and problem solving.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that an answer? If someone isn't meeting the qualifications they aren't in. What's "unacceptable" about that?

Because the systems which identify students and enable them to meet the admissions requirements are massively unequal. I'll give an example. I attended a gifted program starting in 3rd grade. I went to an elementary school for 1st and 2nd grade that was almost entirely white with some asian kids. Part of the mechanism for selecting students for the gifted program was a letter from the student's counselor, teacher, an…

For those interested in what what Scott Aaronson said:

https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=4979

> In a world-historic irony, the main effect of this “solution” will be to drastically limit the number of Asian students, while drastically increasing (!!!) the number of White students. The proportion of Black and Hispanic students is projected to increase a bit but remain small.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best analogy I can think of is sports. In sports, the rules are whatever we say they are, that’s the part that’s socially determined. Lebron James is a amazing basketball player, due to a combination of his genetics and his hard work. But there’s a parallel reality wherein basketball was never invented. And people enjoy sports like horse racing or marathon running, where he would never be able to be world class g…

Does social determination include culture? That's a greater determinant of outcomes than skin color, as the example of outcomes between African Americans and Nigerian immigrants indicates.

Culture is socially determined in the sense that culture is simply the collective actions and decisions that a group of people make.

Reading the intent behind that statement, though, that Nigerians have succeeded in America despite any hinderances they may have faced due to wider societies treatment of black people, that would be somewhat outside of the framework of what I am talking about.

The construction here is, do Black Americans have worse outcomes, on average, because of themselves, or because of societies treatment of them. Culture would fall into the bucket of “they are the reason for their own problems”.

Obviously Nigerians do well on average, but they are also a small fraction of the population. Pointing to Nigerians and saying that race isn’t a contributing factor is making an argument after having found the statistical outlier that proves your argument, how do Nigerians compare to the top cohort of white Americans based on ethnicity or whatever? Is it possible that Nigerians would actually be doing better were there not racial barriers?

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#518
No child should be actively excluded based on a metric like race or gender, just like no student should be deliberately included because of race, gender, class, or any other metric that a parent could use to coerce a school to place their child in a gifted/magnet class. That should be common sense.

Kids should be placed in the gifted/magnet track because of performance, and performance alone. I don't believe that a meritocracy is racist, sexist, or biased in an unfair way. Placing students in classes where they may under perform, and excluding kids who would perform well in an accelerated program are unfair, and a meritocracy mitigates both of these problems.

The article raised a good point about schools that marginalized groups would attend don't have a gifted program, precluding them from even participating. That can be addressed a couple different ways. Either redirect high performers to a school where there is a gifted program present, or mandate the presence of a gifted program in all schools. There will, of course, be differing quality of the program from school to school, which would favor the former course of action.

Having gone through the "gifted program" through elementary and middle school, I can say that the only real differences I felt weren't related to curriculum, we were taught essentially the same things, with slight differences.

1. Smaller class size. In a class of 4th, 5th, and 6th graders, there was maybe 25 kids. 2. Less rowdy/troublemaking classmates. Made for less distractions. 3. Less busywork. The routine of getting a packet every night for homework was not something I had to suffer through like many friends I had that weren't in an accelerated program.

I don't believe you will ever truly eradicate inequities within public services, and the cost of private services, especially in education, preclude many from participating. That said, we should strive to mitigate them. My fear is that the steps taken to mitigate inequity will just move the availability of opportunity from one group to another, where the true solution is increasing the availability for all groups, and let performance be the selector of who is admitted to gifted/accelerated programs.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#519
Another major issue in this discussion is the definition of 'teacher'. As referenced throughout these comments, a 'teaching' job varies dramatically on the district, age, etc. Students from a difficult home life need a social worker than an algebra teacher, yet the state mandates the class no matter how poor the delivery, content, outcome, etc. Meanwhile, teachers get stuck with responsibilities not in their job description...no wonder so many quit.

Its antithetical to the American dream (i.e. an equal starting point for everyone) but we must provide different paths better suited to acknowledging reality and providing reasonable outcomes. Staff them with job descriptions fitting the actual need, and work from there.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#520
post #51

There are so many topics that are hard to talk about nowadays without getting into politics but politics and structural inequality are at the core of this. For the benefit of non-US readers, know that how the US funds public education (K-12) is rather unique. It's done through property taxes essentially. Depending on your state and city your property taxes can vary a lot with the same value property. But what this me…

> But what this means is the wealthier localities have more tax revenue and thus better schools. This can be a vicious cycle of improving property values by having better schools and thus generating more tax revenue and so on. I say "vicious" because it is absolutely exclusionary to lower-income people who cannot possibly afford to live in these areas. And that's by design.

That's not really true. You can look at the per pupil spending in places like Washington, D.C. or Baltimore and they're well above the U.S. average (D.C. is one of the top spenders in the nation). A city's public school system sometimes largely serves lower income students even if it has a number of high earners in its tax base (urban yuppies with no kids, wealthy people who send their kids to private schools, etc. all paying into the system without adding to the load).

If we look at funding levels vs. outcomes, we can see many of the best funded school systems struggling. That's because school is a complex problem that doesn't simply get solved by more funding.

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