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The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

teachforamerica.org

371–380 of 922 posts

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#371
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an oft repeated myth. In addition to property taxes, school funding is supplemented by state and federal budgets, in inverse proportion to property taxes, so that racial differences in per-pupil funding are negligible: This is not my experience. I chose a more expensive house with higher taxes because the schools are better. They are better funded than those in the surrounding areas. Sure the Federal Govern…

> my kids' books and chromebooks are always nice and new There's plenty of evidence that parental attitudes are a big factor: "Middle-class pupils do better because parents and schools put more effort into their education, according to a study [..] factors studied were the parents' interest in their children's education, measured by, for example, whether they read to their children or attended meetings with teachers"…

Check out Numberblocks from the BBC. My kindergartner found it while she was in Pre-K and learned multiplication and division on her own.

Much of our intelligence is from our parents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

I'm just stating that my kids' elementary school is nicer than those in our county and definitely from my hometown. They do receive a lot more money than what my hometown spent.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#372
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the work environment terrible?

Not who you were replying to, but my grandmother was a teacher and specifically wanted to work in one of these schools to try to help the students in bad situations. She stopped teaching a while ago, but much of this likely still applies. Basically, the students frequently don't do their homework, students would just not show up to class or outright just drop out, students misbehave more frequently (including violent…

IMO the central problem with US schools isn't the schools. It's our broken policing and justice system, our bad social safety net, and our poor worker protection, among other things like the ongoing consequences of racist city planning. We will never move the needle very much, on school quality, by focusing on schools.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equality of outcome is not the goal of equity. That’s a straw man argument created by its detractors. People point out disparities as evidence that there aren’t equal opportunities in society. The conservative position is simply to assert that equality of opportunity exists cuz America, and if you question that you are a communist who just wants everyone to be the same.

I disagree its a strawman argument. Its a clear delineation. Trying to get all kids to successfully complete gifted programs is a very challenging if not impossible goal. Not all kids will be successful in gifted programs. However, Equality of opportunity states that any kids its appropriate for have access. Its an important distinction. Now, its arguable that certain sub-cultures within America make success in schoo…

I don’t have a problem with gifted programs in principle, but it’s also fair to ask how they are working in practice.

People in this thread are up in arms about the principle, but the reason that they are being challenged is based on how they operate in practice.

Do all children have equal access? Nominally, maybe. But that’s de facto not the case.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#374
post #51

There are so many topics that are hard to talk about nowadays without getting into politics but politics and structural inequality are at the core of this. For the benefit of non-US readers, know that how the US funds public education (K-12) is rather unique. It's done through property taxes essentially. Depending on your state and city your property taxes can vary a lot with the same value property. But what this me…

> how the US funds public education (K-12) is rather unique. It's done through property taxes essentially. Depending on your state and city your property taxes can vary a lot with the same value property. But what this means is the wealthier localities have more tax revenue and thus better schools. This is an oft repeated myth. In addition to property taxes, school funding is supplemented by state and federal budgets…

The conclusion of the study you linked seems to paint a slightly more complicated picture:

"We found evidence that between-district racial segregation is associated with racial disparities in school district spending, while between-district racial socioeconomic segregation is not. We find that as Black–White racial segregation increases over time, total per pupil expenditures and other per pupil expenditures shift in ways that disfavor the typical Black student’s district relative to the typical White student’s district."

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#375
I wrote an essay about special education a while back:

https://boingboing.net/2013/01/05/pedagogyofthedepressed.htm...

Boing Boing never ended up importing the comments from back then, and when I reached out to a contact about writing a follow up, the entire site was DDOSed.

Too many teachers purposefully abuse the gifted, then react irrationally to perfectly reasonable responses.

(I wasn't paid, and they put it out without my opt in, though to be fair, the editor did quite a bit of editing and free graphics work when they could have thrown the text up as is - a few of the wording changes were probably a good thing, looking back with the wisdom of a 30 something.)

On the other hand, never once have the folks who abused me ever apologized, and they continue to gaslight me and obstruct me to the point I'm considering moving to Italy.

I'm really sick of rude people, and I know it's hypocritical given some of the comments I make on the internet, but from early on in life I've had perpetual issues with folks who have a very high standard for my behavior, but not their own.

I have literal scars from some of what they did, but I also have enemies in the education and medical community who continue to engage in illegal, retaliatory behavior for my first amendment protected free speech.

I cannot emphasize enough how badly it backfired that neoliberals engineered society around the idea that you can't interact with people without permission, then melted down when my response, due to COVID, was basically "Fine, you're right, I have anger issues. I'm also not your caregiver, so keep back six feet."

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#376
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? That if a rich parent teaches their kid to read, the fair solution is for the school to unteach the kid, to level the playing field?

I would imagine that the people who are pushing for more equitable systems would argue that would should give people who lack that kind of parental support more help. Why should a child suffer simply because they were born into a less supportive family environment?

No child should suffer, and I think everyone can very easily agree on that point. But children born into a less supportive family environment are going to suffer for it. So maybe we should focus more energy on figuring out why less supportive family environments exist in the first place, and work on fixing those issues?

I don't know. I'm no expert and definitely don't have the answers.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#377
If I’m leading a system in which the population of eighth graders taking Algebra I has a disproportionate number of white and Asian students, then eliminating Algebra I as an offering for eighth graders looks like an obvious pathway to equity.

Well, yes, if by equity you mean the race composition of every class equals the race composition of the school as a whole. But shouldn't equity in education mean that every student gets the instruction and support they need to achieve their potential, insofar as the school is able to provide it, without respect to their race, class or sex?

There were no gifted programs or classes when and where I attended school (6 decades back, in a very rural part of the Great Plains). But there was a teacher in my school who took it upon herself to run a reading lab that you could get into with the blessing of the school principal. Mostly she taught remedial reading to those who needed extra help, but one of her 5 periods each day was called "advanced reading lab" and into that group she took students who showed exceptional or nascent exceptional intellectual capability. In the guise of teaching us to read better and faster, she exercised our brains with science, history, and even math. She's the only teacher I remember by name, and she did more to launch my success in life than any 5 other teachers combined, behind only my parents. Because she made going to school worthwhile - interesting, exciting, and mind-expanding. (She also taught me to read 2000 words per minute with retention, which was a hell of a useful skill, but only a skill - the world of knowledge and thinking was her real gift).

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#378

The kids of elites and the rich will always have opportunities regardless of aptitude. Is it any surprise actor's kids tend to also have many opportunities in acting. Opposing gifted education, acceleration, etc. seems like another way of pulling up the ladder, even if it's framed as being well-intentioned.

edit: misread, I agree

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#379
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever had a 3rd grader threaten to stab you, and look like they really mean it? A second grader call you the c-word? That kind of thing happening basically every day, often multiple times a day? Credible threats of gang violence on a regular basis. School-wide lockdowns with some regularity due to threats of violence, or violence that has actually occurred. Admin with extremely limited options to deal with any of this…

Hmm, I can't imagine having to deal with those things. People don't act like that where I live.

Sounds like you’re enabling some structural inequality, or something.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#380
post #264
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ correlates extremely heavily with having a successful life by western civilization standards, yes.

So we should accept that 98 0+% of people can or gave a successful life, yet should support the gifted I don't want to spend my tax money educating future bankers.

If you're talking about the top 10% of kids, you're obviously not talking about [just] the hyper-elite future bank executives (who are probably what, the top 0.0001%?) The top 10% of students is quite large would include all manner of engineers, doctors, etc. People who play vital roles in keeping our civilization going, not just parasitically leeching off interest rates or whatever it is banking executives do.

Most of those future executives are probably in private schools right now anyway.

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