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Ask HN: What has to change? I'm sick of it

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Re: Ask HN: What has to change? I'm sick of it

#21

Post by karmakurtisaani »

michaelchisari wrote: post #15

I've started writing recruiters back with this question: If there was one book I could read to understand this company's business model and future, what would it be? I'm very careful about what company I join after a string of bad experiences (or even good experiences that failed). I don't just care about engineering, I want to understand the product and business I'd be working on/for on a deeper and broader level. S…

Probably too much effort for the recruiter to figure out. Understandable, I've been in my company almost 5 years and still wouldn't have a good answer.

Re: Ask HN: What has to change? I'm sick of it

#22

Post by 908B64B197 »

There's 3 types/market for recruiters and they almost never overlap. The first are "body shop style" recruiters. It's basically a numbers game where they try to cold-call as much people with githubs/linkedin or blogs that reference programming. They don't know programming (not even what's the difference between languages or front-end/back-end) and are looking for a list of buzzwords. They'll send copy-pasted messages (you can tell because it references tech you never used or never even claimed to have used). If you respond (and really you shouldn't) you won't be able to get any relevant information about the position because... they don't have it. These recruiters are often contracted by external firms in "best value countries" and are given canned response to message you. That's probably what the author encountered.

Second type are professional recruiters. Their salary is by commissions will often be a percentage of your salary. They are knowledgeable about programming and tech (often former engineers who wanted a break from coding!). They typically are looking to match specific profiles to specific jobs at client companies. This goes all the way to recruiters specialized in C-Suite executives (and you can picture the commission finding a CEO will bring in). Their messages will be personalized and you shouldn't hesitate to reply back even if you aren't looking for a job. They know that most great software engineers are almost never openly looking for a job so their goal is to be on good terms with a large number of talented developers so that the minute they start looking for a job they can match them with positions. You'll know when you encounter one.

Third type is basically referrals. A players attract A players, smart companies know it. Make sure your referral bonus is a percentage of total comp. It's probably the most effective way of recruiting (it has an insane signal to noise ratio). But you only get access to that type of network by... bringing value and being part of it in the first place!

You somehow ended up on the former's spam list. Sorry.

Re: Ask HN: What has to change? I'm sick of it

#23

Post by wincy »

I’ve gotten probably 30 emails from Amazon recruiters in the last six months. Always different people and different teams. At one point they did this tricky thing where “the director of Machine Learning” messaged me on LinkedIn but it was a recruiter using her account or something strange. I have no idea why but they absolutely won’t stop bothering me. I seriously doubt I could get through their technical process without a lot of practice.

Re: Ask HN: What has to change? I'm sick of it

#24

Post by warrenm »

manuelabeledo wrote: post #10

This happened to me with Google. Apparently, 10+ years ago, I showed some interest in some Google product aimed at developers. It's been so long, I cannot even recall which one. For the past 5-6 years, I've been receiving emails from Google recruiters. When I finally asked one where did they get my address, he said that I was labeled in their "database" as a software engineer, and that "database" is shared across the…

I've never applied to Google

Insofar as I know, I've never been referred to Google

Yet every couple years I get a Google recruiter coming at me

Always entertaining to answer their question, "why did you apply for this job" with, "I didn't. You contacted me."

Re: Ask HN: What has to change? I'm sick of it

#25

Post by ethanwillis »

michaelchisari wrote: post #15

I've started writing recruiters back with this question: If there was one book I could read to understand this company's business model and future, what would it be? I'm very careful about what company I join after a string of bad experiences (or even good experiences that failed). I don't just care about engineering, I want to understand the product and business I'd be working on/for on a deeper and broader level. S…

  If there was one book I could read to understand this company's business model and future, what would it be?

  I don't just care about engineering, I want to understand the product and business I'd be working on/for on a deeper and broader level.
I like everything about this and everything you're saying fully resonates with me. At the end of the day companies themselves need some sort of pressure on them to at least raise what's currently the "minimum." I know it's not the recruiters fault generally, and definitely a large part of it is the company itself and the incentives they setup that make it cutthroat.

On the line about the book, I would also read it. It's good for me, it's good for them.

Re: Ask HN: What has to change? I'm sick of it

#27

Post by michaelchisari »

SheddingPattern wrote: post #20
michaelchisari wrote: post #15

I've started writing recruiters back with this question: If there was one book I could read to understand this company's business model and future, what would it be? I'm very careful about what company I join after a string of bad experiences (or even good experiences that failed). I don't just care about engineering, I want to understand the product and business I'd be working on/for on a deeper and broader level. S…

Thinking of a recruiter as a teacher doesn't seem accurate to me. They should not be expected to understand the company well or the role of the software team in the company. Recruiters are intermediaries whose role it is to save the hiring manager's valuable time. They will focus on the initial scanning of profiles (does this vaguely look like a developer profile?), be responsible for scheduling and maybe salary nego…

| Thinking of a recruiter as a teacher doesn't seem accurate to me

That's a comedic throwaway line you shouldn't take too seriously. The joke is about me being the kind of dork who asks for more homework.

| They should not be expected to understand the company well

I fully don't expect the recruiter to be the one who determines the answer to that question. All they have to do is ask someone higher up though.

Re: Ask HN: What has to change? I'm sick of it

#28

Post by ethanwillis »

908B64B197 wrote: post #22

There's 3 types/market for recruiters and they almost never overlap. The first are "body shop style" recruiters. It's basically a numbers game where they try to cold-call as much people with githubs/linkedin or blogs that reference programming. They don't know programming (not even what's the difference between languages or front-end/back-end) and are looking for a list of buzzwords. They'll send copy-pasted messages…

Accurate descriptions in my experience. Luckily in my very first role ever(a long time ago now) I worked with the second type. Unfortunately he's retired now, but he matched me with a lot of very good jobs. But also he matched those companies with me. It was exactly the process of cultivating relationships (let's go get dinner/lunch, let's just shoot the shit, etc.) And he didn't waste anyone's time. That made people take him seriously and either reach out to him from the hiring side or instantly take his calls on the "searching side."

I think what's worrisome to me is that the first type you described. I fully expect it from job board scouring 3rd party "recruiting" agencies and my spam box does too. What I don't expect is for the first type to increasingly be representatives directly from the company themselves. And this isn't exactly some no-name company looking to add you to their cubicle farm. (Or maybe they have a name and ALSO a cubicle farm). My personal feelings aside, I get that they need "volume" but I don't think these types of tactics are the way to go about it. And no I don't have a solution for it, it is indeed a hard problem :)

Interestingly from some of my academic days there might be something to draw some inspiration from for a solution. Social scientists trying to sample either hard to reach populations (due to social stigma) or hard to find populations (small overall number of members) use Chain Referral sampling. It's an interesting topic. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/004912418101000205 For hard to reach research papers.. there's at least a solid solution for that!

Re: Ask HN: What has to change? I'm sick of it

#29

Post by ethanwillis »

joegahona wrote: post #17

I got a similar email. I deleted it, then deleted it from my "deleted" folder. I can sniff out when an email came from a human vs. one that's boilerplate, and I'm almost always right about it and get a response when I do respond. Some still slip through though. If you're genuinely curious, find the person on Linkedin (if they're not a bot), and email them there. You didn't share the whole email, but the one line you…

For Posterity here is the full email text. Formatting isn't the best due to me copy pasting.

I'm fine with templated/boilerplate emails. However, I just would have an expectation that a human will be on the other side if information is actually sent. In the late 90s my father, a car salesman, would send out thousands of form letters in the late 90s to prospective customers. Maybe I have brain damage from helping him lick so many envelopes :) but I think the key difference between his operation and what I see in general now(not just recruiting) is that the human element is getting increasingly pushed further back in the process or was never going to be there in the first place. Maybe I'll dig into the recruiter to see if they're even a real person at all If they're not then this just makes me question even more the fundamental value of these processes from a company that's not some fly by night operation.

  Hello Ethan ,
 
  I am reaching out to let you know that Chewy is hiring Software Engineers for the locations -  Boston, MA, Minneapolis, MN and Dania Beach, FL.
  Chewy is a rapidly growing e-commerce platform and is developing innovative solutions to enhance the 
  online experience for Chewy customers. Hence, we’re seeking passionate and driven engineers to join our 
  software engineering teams to contribute their best and take Chewy to the next level. Based on your 
  background I think you could be a good fit for one of our openings.
  If you’re interested, let’s schedule a time to discuss this further. I will appreciate if you can reply to 
  this email with your latest updated resume and also if you can let us know if you need any work/visa 
  sponsorship to continue with us? I will be happy to schedule a time to discuss this in detail as per your 
  availability. 
  Thank you for your time! :-)

Re: Ask HN: What has to change? I'm sick of it

#30

Post by maerF0x0 »

wincy wrote: post #23

I’ve gotten probably 30 emails from Amazon recruiters in the last six months. Always different people and different teams. At one point they did this tricky thing where “the director of Machine Learning” messaged me on LinkedIn but it was a recruiter using her account or something strange. I have no idea why but they absolutely won’t stop bothering me. I seriously doubt I could get through their technical process wit…

They're trying to increase their funnel to keep that $325K max salary from being the average. They're investing to increase their supply of labor.
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