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The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

teachforamerica.org

81–90 of 922 posts

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#81
post #6

Eliminating “gifted” programs because they offend the racial sensibilities of the managerial class is a blatant exercise in privilege and ladder-pulling. I think it’s grotesque how many privileged people are happily destroying the lives of others (often, those they pretend to care about) so they don’t have to think critically about or be uncomfortable thinking about race. Seattle is the epitome of “privileged White l…

I'm pretty socially conservative, and the equality-of-outcome mindset is very unintuitive for me. It's very tempting (edit: for me ) to lazily rest on the caricature, "I don't care how many people I hurt, as long as I can help just one!" Despite that, or maybe because of that, I make a conscious effort to understand where the other side is coming from. I figure there's little chance of finding a compromise if I can't…

> I figure there's little chance of finding a compromise if I can't even comprehend their viewpoint.

I understand it just fine, but there’s a fundamental disagreement, in that I don’t support racism nor view people in terms of “racial tribes” — while proponents of equity do. That’s the frame they’re working from when they say denying an Asian student a place at Harvard in favor of a less qualified black applicant is “good”: that it’s okay to harm that person because they’re yellow and we need to balance between yellows and blacks — to accomplish their Utopian vision. Collectivism when applied to race inevitably leads to institutional racism.

I don’t believe that’s something we need to “compromise” on: institutional racism was a disaster when we tried it before and modern attempts (eg, Netflix and Disney catering to those views) show that bigotry is widely unpopular and a poor way to run a company.

Sometimes you just have to say “bigotry is wrong and we’re not trying it again — no matter how you dress it up in the language of civil rights or how righteous you feel about being a bigot”.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#82
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just read what he wrote? > Black students are 66% less likely to be identified as gifted compared to white students with similar test scores. Black, Latinx, and Native American students are far less likely to attend a school that even offers a gifted program.

I dug up the study, in case anyone is interested https://cdn.vanderbilt.edu/vu-news/files/20190417222934/Gris... What's interesting that is not mentioned is page 15: a black student with a black teacher is still much less likely to be identified as gifted. even less than a white student with a non-white teacher. internalized racism?

more like different schools, the difference reflecting the sociodemographics of the reflected areas rather than racial IQ differences.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#83
post #11

Gifted programs are "unacceptably white". WTF does that mean? I had to pass essentially an IQ test to get placed into those classes. For me, it made a big difference in being engaged in schoolwork when every class consisted of reiterating content for days which I had mastered in minutes. Edit: I removed "I don't see what race has to do with it." I do see how race can affect this when the gatekeeper is a teacher with…

> Gifted programs are "unacceptably white".

You are only scratching the surface here. Some places had a hard time "proving" their gifted programs were "too white" so they started using the term "white and white-adjacent" to include Asian kids as well (often from impoverished background but that's another issue) in these stats [0].

> I don't see why race has anything to do with it.

Buckle up. The SF school district is trying to include a lot more racial content at school [1]. Now even math is considered racist [2]. I wish I was making this up.

[0] https://www.asian-dawn.com/2020/11/17/school-district-catego...

[1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/heatherknight/article/Sa...

[2] https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#84
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unacceptably white is still a horrible way to phrase this. Is the NBA unacceptably black? Why don't we remove basketball courts from inner cities and cut off black kid's feet /s eye roll BTW, I realize he is arguing for the opposite of this. edit: If you think I am racist or something let me spell it out as I did in another comment: It is not unacceptable when white children have opportunities. It is unacceptable whe…

That is a bad analogy because the NBA is not the only accessible path to a stable middle class life while school, for many people, is.

You used 'many' in your second part, which is the same 'not only'.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#85
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unacceptably white is still a horrible way to phrase this. Is the NBA unacceptably black? Why don't we remove basketball courts from inner cities and cut off black kid's feet /s eye roll BTW, I realize he is arguing for the opposite of this. edit: If you think I am racist or something let me spell it out as I did in another comment: It is not unacceptable when white children have opportunities. It is unacceptable whe…

That is a bad analogy because the NBA is not the only accessible path to a stable middle class life while school, for many people, is.

School is, gifted programs are not.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#86
post #51

There are so many topics that are hard to talk about nowadays without getting into politics but politics and structural inequality are at the core of this. For the benefit of non-US readers, know that how the US funds public education (K-12) is rather unique. It's done through property taxes essentially. Depending on your state and city your property taxes can vary a lot with the same value property. But what this me…

I’ve always quipped that the idea that the highest property taxes fund the poorest areas, and vice-versa. While not feasible, the current situation is absurd.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#87
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unacceptably white is still a horrible way to phrase this. Is the NBA unacceptably black? Why don't we remove basketball courts from inner cities and cut off black kid's feet /s eye roll BTW, I realize he is arguing for the opposite of this. edit: If you think I am racist or something let me spell it out as I did in another comment: It is not unacceptable when white children have opportunities. It is unacceptable whe…

That is a bad analogy because the NBA is not the only accessible path to a stable middle class life while school, for many people, is.

So you have to be in gifted to have a successful life?

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#88
post #11

Gifted programs are "unacceptably white". WTF does that mean? I had to pass essentially an IQ test to get placed into those classes. For me, it made a big difference in being engaged in schoolwork when every class consisted of reiterating content for days which I had mastered in minutes. Edit: I removed "I don't see what race has to do with it." I do see how race can affect this when the gatekeeper is a teacher with…

> I had to pass essentially an IQ test to get placed into those classes.

IQ tests are notoriously and historically pretty racist.

They can be useful in certain contexts but they aren't very good as an academic gatekeeper or a measure of individual intelligence.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#89
post #11

Gifted programs are "unacceptably white". WTF does that mean? I had to pass essentially an IQ test to get placed into those classes. For me, it made a big difference in being engaged in schoolwork when every class consisted of reiterating content for days which I had mastered in minutes. Edit: I removed "I don't see what race has to do with it." I do see how race can affect this when the gatekeeper is a teacher with…

There is no intelligence test I know of that can perfectly control for advantages and disadvantages in education / home life.

Not everyone is as well-positioned as you might have been to excel at an IQ test. And to the extent that someone is disadvantaged, their race may indeed be an indirect cause.

Re: The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted education programs (2021)

#90

"eighth grade Algebra I classes and gifted education programs that disproportionately exclude Black and brown children" The absence of "Black and brown children" doesn't mean they were _excluded_, it means they weren't _selected_, or never applied in the first place. If they were deliberately not selected because of their race, that's wrong and should be fixed pronto. And what are the odds of that? If they were not s…

> Black students are 66% less likely to be identified as gifted compared to white students _with similar test scores_. Black, Latinx, and Native American students are far less likely to attend a school that even offers a gifted program.

Emphasis mine. The likely thing going on is something subconscious or unintentionally discriminatory, or somehow related to the home family life.

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