With respect to the author, the article fails to show that in fact “entropy” is related to “complexity” and how the two are related. Entropy should not be thought of as “overhead” or “wasted energy,” which is what I believe the author is getting at. Instead, entropy is the tendency to disorganization. So, the analogy could be the more stuff you have, the more disorganized it becomes; but this is a weak analogy in my…
> entropy is necessary for complexity to emerge. Something about this particular line does not sit well with me. How would we define the relationship between entropy, complexity and information ?
Entropy Is Fatal
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Re: Entropy Is Fatal
#22With respect to the author, the article fails to show that in fact “entropy” is related to “complexity” and how the two are related. Entropy should not be thought of as “overhead” or “wasted energy,” which is what I believe the author is getting at. Instead, entropy is the tendency to disorganization. So, the analogy could be the more stuff you have, the more disorganized it becomes; but this is a weak analogy in my…
> entropy is necessary for complexity to emerge. Something about this particular line does not sit well with me. How would we define the relationship between entropy, complexity and information ?
tldr:
(Shannon) entropy [1]: expected description length of a state of a system
(Shape) complexity [0]: a 'clumped-ness' metric: clump sizes / inter-clump separations
information: not sure anyone ever really resolved this in a satisfying way :^) [2]
[0] https://philphys.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/Barbour-Saig_Su...[1] https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/606722/how-do-di...
[2] https://monoskop.org/images/2/2f/Shannon_Claude_E_1956_The_B...
Re: Entropy Is Fatal
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
Growth is possible by increasing outputs from the same level of inputs. Certain types of growth are unsustainable, yet other types of growth, e.g. productivity growth, is definitely sustainable.
Growth should probably be more precisely defined in the vast majority of cases to avoid confusion and misunderstanding. In terms of systems, the quantity that grows or shrinks should be concrete (i.e. not a rate, certainly). For example, human population. Let's say the birthrate in a population is growing, so a naive conclusion would be that the population, a concrete object, must also be growing. This is not true if…
Re: Entropy Is Fatal
#24Re: Entropy Is Fatal
#25There are no isolated systems in the context being discussed, i.e. houses and phones and so on. This is an important point: steady-state thermodynamics is a far more complicated beast than closed-system thermodynamics, and moving-state thermodynamics even more so.
Furthermore, how does one distinguish between useful and useless work? Work is work, the value of work is something humans decide on socially. Say people are put to work building a pyramid, so the kings and priests have a nice high place to sit. Egyptian pyramids are impressive, but are they useful? Maybe in terms of some abstract notion like consolidating the power of the state or impressing one's neighbors.
Anyway, here are some solutions to the author's points:
1) Unlimited and uncontrolled growth: match inputs to outputs. Delete as many old emails per day as you receive new ones. If it's important, copy and store securely offline. If you buy new clothes, send an equal amount of old clothes to recycler or the thrift store. If that's too much work, cut back on inputs instead.
2) Decision-makers have no skin in the game: If the decision-maker wants to build a pyramid, the decision-maker should be spending their days building that pyramid alongside their employees. Then they might decide that building pyramids is a useless activity, and perhaps building a bridge or a dam would be a wiser undertaking. Yes, investment capitalism has this problem. Put the shareholders to work on the production line or give them the boot, that's the solution.
3) Momentum is not a source of entropy I don't think. Entropy is more like diffusion than directed momentum. An object impacting another due to momentum could increase entropy, like a car running into a brick wall. Maybe the author is talking about something abstract like 'the momentum of bad habits is hard to break'? Here is where an injection of entropy ('shaking things up') might be helpful.
Physics analogies can be rather overused, in conclusion.
Re: Entropy Is Fatal
#26Re: Entropy Is Fatal
#27Re: Entropy Is Fatal
#28I'm not sure "Entropy" is the right word for what the author wants to talk about, but the article raises some interesting points > 1st poison: Unlimited and uncontrolled growth IMO this is by far the biggest poison, and the one our society is most prone to ignoring. Every company, government budget, population, etc is considered "successful" if it's growing, and "failing" if it's shrinking. And the growth is always m…
Re: Entropy Is Fatal
#29Software: try to build orthogonal features so that maximum value can be obtained with minimum complexity; build tools with well-designed deprecation mechanisms, then have releases where underused/redundant functionality is first deprecated and then removed entirely.
e.g. all the major extension repositories for a particular tool parse the machine-generated deprecation list, scan extensions, and email owners when they use deprecated APIs. Maybe provide "shims" where APIs are internally removed entirely but transitional packages are provided that implement the removed APIs in terms of still-present ones.
Companies: deliberately design policies and organizational structures that are simple and minimize entropy; be prepared to pay some upfront financial costs to do so (e.g. because your policies aren't layers upon layers of hacks that grow every time someone makes a mistake), but reap rewards in the future as incidental costs of running your company are lower and less bureaucracy means workers are more efficient.
e.g. instead of having a bunch of different rules about different kinds of vacation time, consolidate them all into 1 or 2 kinds (normal and medical?) and give everyone a bit extra to compensate for some of the edge cases that were smoothed over.
Governments: legislators should spend some time attempting to "refactor" old laws such that fewer words and less complexity still results in effectively the same legal environment; reduce government functions (as much as some of you may dislike that idea).
e.g. instead of trying to provide hundreds/thousands of different special-case tax breaks for low-income families, use a "sliding" tax rate where e.g. at $1k/year annual income your tax rate is 0%, at $1M a year your tax rate is n%, with linear interpolation between those two extremes (or whatever). Simpler, still somewhat fair, people might actually be able to do their taxes by reading the law, and no suspicious discontinuities[1]. Or something else - with some thought and a little experience in government, I'm sure someone could come up with an income tax system that was an order of magnitude shorter than what the US has now.
Re: Entropy Is Fatal
#30With respect to the author, the article fails to show that in fact “entropy” is related to “complexity” and how the two are related. Entropy should not be thought of as “overhead” or “wasted energy,” which is what I believe the author is getting at. Instead, entropy is the tendency to disorganization. So, the analogy could be the more stuff you have, the more disorganized it becomes; but this is a weak analogy in my…
> entropy is necessary for complexity to emerge. Something about this particular line does not sit well with me. How would we define the relationship between entropy, complexity and information ?
My understanding is that this is pretty cool stuff that solves Maxwell's demon and also sort of explains biological evolution, because apparently a system responding to it's environment is computation, performed by changing the system's state as a function of a driving signal, which results in memory about the driving signal that can be interpreted as computing a model, a model that can be predictive of the future. Now apparently how predictive that model is equals to how thermodynamically efficient the system is. Even the smallest molecular machines with memory thus must conduct predictive inference to approach maximal energetic efficiency.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221703137_Thermodyn...