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Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

concerned.tech

131–140 of 149 posts

Re: Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

#131

The letter has some good and bad. Good because it advocates for more regulation and consumer protection, and points out some obvious concerns with crypto like energy expenditure in proof of work. Bad because the letter misrepresents the technology and paints privacy as a purely criminal behavior, and suggests the entire technology sector is useless. > Similarly, most public blockchain-based financial products are a d…

I think the chat analogy is twice broken. Firstly, the equivalents are something like:

Bitcoin some chat system where anyone can see all the messages but not necessarily who sent them

Regular banking private chatting but the government, those in chats, and the chat service provider can get detailed access to logs. A bit like email but with more government access.

Privacy coins a bit like E2E but maybe chat participants don’t know whom they are chatting to. (I’m not super sure on the details).

So I think the first half of your analogy is pretty broken and there are middle grounds (eg government being able to subpoena chat records from companies) in the chat space.

The second issue is that I don’t really buy the analogy between private speech and money. Some people have many orders of magnitude more money than others but that isn’t really the case with private speech (obviously some people may have much more reach when speaking publicly, but this doesn’t go through E2E encryption; attempting to maintain large conspiracies is a social challenge rather than a technical challenge of overcoming group size limits on your favourite messenger). So in some sense the benefits of private chat are reasonably fairly shared across people whereas the benefits of private money disproportionately go to the people with much more money.

Re: Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

#132
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a use of crypto, that's what it does. What is a use for that? I'm with OP on this, I've yet to see a use for it that isn't speculative gambling.

OP asks for a use, I provided. You say it is not a use, it’s “what it does.” Yes, it’s exactly what it does? That’s what it’s being used for.

That's like saying a use for a car is to turn the wheels when you press the accelerator - technically true but meaningless. What problem does

> timestamped, censorship-resistant and tamper-proof ledger of cryptographically signed messages.

solve? _That_ is the question that people aren't answering.

Re: Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious answer: nothing. Absolutely utterly nothing. Why should we? Why is there an expectation that we should? Where does this sense of entitlement come in from those who gambled, that others are responsible for rescuing you out of it? I assume you understood the landscape, and the risks, and took the gamble as an informed, consenting adult, and are willing to stand by it as an adult if gamble doesn't work out. If N…

> If it helps understand my seemingly heartless position: I have exactly as much sympathy and empathy for somebody spending $4bil on crypto, as for investing $4bil in Phillip Morris or another tobacco company a couple of decades ago. This did help, thank you. Your gambling metaphor is useful, but incomplete. Consider this instead: You come across your fellow citizens gambling in a casino. You decide they must stop wh…

I think "increased regulations" is a wide spectrum. Extremes (I believe) are rarely a good thing.

"Confiscate money from all people in Casino" / "Confiscate all Bitcoin" are, I believe, extremes.both

"Issue licenses for gambling, provide oversight, age restrict, run information campaigns about dangers of gambling, create support and help programs", is, I think, reasonable (and we can further discuss details, and we do; "Are loot boxes gambling"; "should state / group X run casinos"; who and how should be able to gamble, what is the right amount if disclosure, what is an informed responsible consenting adult, etc. All good things for us as society to honestly discuss).

"Ensure bitcoin income is taxed (like every other investment), that it follows disclosure rules (like every other investment), that it is open and transparent and licensed, etc cetera", is I think reasonable and merely catches up the playing field and closes off loopholes that EVERYbody knew were temporary loopholes (and smarter people than me can discuss details). "Government should not spend gazillion dollars blindly investing into this technology hoping to find problem to solve" is also, I think, a statement I'd stand behind. And not unique - there are MILLION fads or technologies or endevours I don't want government to invest in, so don't feel picked on :)

IF that latter option still somehow causes everybody involved to lose money... well ain't that just food for thought though, right? It means people were literally banking/hoping/assuming they can do things without oversight and through magical loopholes forever. I don't want to say "illegally" because there may or may not have been a law in time with new technology. But crypto and bitcoin are almost as much fun to discuss as religion with a Christian apologetic - it gets all shifty very quickly; it is and isn't investment, or a transactional system, or currency, or stable, or volatile, or private or public,or efficient, or safe, reversible or fixed, etc etc depending on needs of the moment and which point we're trying to make.

I don't see anything synonymous with "Confiscate" in that letter. I see it as a small attempt to counterpoint the massive over-enthusiasm, bluster, lobbying, and tall tales that abound around crypto (there may or may not be a nugget of useful technology, use case, future approaches in blockchain; willing to discuss that; but anybody that rejects the observable amount of scam and dishonesty in today's actual crypto implementations, investments, sales pitches and pushes and frankly disinformation campaigns, is not having an honest conversation with me and/or is trying to sell me something and/or has been sold/swindled themselves).

My 100 Croatian Lipa :)

Re: Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

#134
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating money and messages. It is perfectly compatible to argue, simultaneously, against cryptocurrencies, and for e2e encrypted messages.

The Supreme Court of the US has determined money to be speech, so this is an unwise position to take. If you ask the government to prevent the use of cryptography in cryptocurrencies then you undermine the argument that the government should not tap or intermediate all communications. At the end of the day, a financial transaction IS a message. It’s a command to a ledger to make an adjustment.

IANAL, but as far I understand, "money is speech" relates to the 1st amendment, whereas wiretapping and key escrow relate to the 4th amendment. Which legal theory could be reasonably applied to map from "ban/regulation of crypto-currencies" to "ban/regulation of E2EE communication"?

I'm specifically asking for a legal theory, not a political framing, because your explicit mention of the Supreme Court implies a scenario where politics will ban/regulate one of both things, and then courts will employ the "money is speech" argument to map the ban/regulation of that one thing onto the other thing.

Re: Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

#135
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As evidenced by the hard fork of Ethereum when a smart contract didn't work the way it was supposed to. There clearly is demand for something like transaction disputes.

Yes, if the vast majority of the users in the network come to clear consensus on forking the protocol to enact a single change, they can do so. This is not a bad thing, it’s similar to how we fork our laws in the real world as we realize they contain pitfalls and loopholes. This is very different from individual transaction disputes on a VISA-like protocol, and the DAO fork doesn’t suggest that transaction level disp…

> it’s similar to how we fork our laws in the real world as we realize they contain pitfalls and loopholes

I don't think politics work like you think they do. If the opposition could just "fork the law" when they don't like what the government is doing, there'd be millions of sovereign countries by now.

Re: Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

#136

The letter has some good and bad. Good because it advocates for more regulation and consumer protection, and points out some obvious concerns with crypto like energy expenditure in proof of work. Bad because the letter misrepresents the technology and paints privacy as a purely criminal behavior, and suggests the entire technology sector is useless. > Similarly, most public blockchain-based financial products are a d…

E2E privacy has a lot of uses. Crypto has none. It’s just an enabler and hotbed of a variety of scams. Any use it may have can only possibly reveal itself after the crypto asset bubble/scams die. So even if you’re a crypto enthusiast, you should be in favor of this whole disastrous phase for crypto ending so you can try again and actually make it useful this time. Since crypto has become a completely speculation driv…

>E2E privacy has a lot of uses. ZCrypto has none.

>It’s just an enabler and hotbed of a variety of scams. T his just keeps getting trotted out again and again on HN as if it were a dying circus horse, but with no real merit. Even analysis by companies that spend all day, every day tracking cryptocurrency use and transactions estimate that only something like 2% of them are criminal. Even if we add in fraudulent/criminal funds that were laundered well enough to hide their origin and purpose from these tracking services, the percentage is still almost certainly a small minority.

Add to that a couple things: First, that not all "criminal" transactions are morally wrong just because they're illegal. No doubt there are anti-Putin Russians right now trying to get their money out of country with crypto and breaking a law or two. Are they scum?

Secondly, yes, there are many, many normal people using crypto for many things. I personally know many who do this, for work payments, difficult transactions because of some regulatory bullshit, remittances and even in one case as payment for contemporary dance services while living overseas. Anecdotes, but I have no doubt that they're extremely widespread, because my friend circle isn't one of crypto bros and money launderers. It's of ordinary people.

How fucking tedious to see so many on a so-called hacker site shit so repetitively and with so much categorically dismissive ignorance on something many of its readers emotionally dislike. It's not hard to verify how exaggerated or just worng some of these dismissive claims are.

Re: Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP asks for a use, I provided. You say it is not a use, it’s “what it does.” Yes, it’s exactly what it does? That’s what it’s being used for.

That's like saying a use for a car is to turn the wheels when you press the accelerator - technically true but meaningless. What problem does > timestamped, censorship-resistant and tamper-proof ledger of cryptographically signed messages. solve? _That_ is the question that people aren't answering.

The engine’s use is to turn energy into mechanical motion, and from that we can build a variety of utility on top.

The chain’s use is to provide a secure layer for signed messages. It might be a dissident writing a message that cannot be revoked by their government; it might be a transfer of value from user A to B that is not reliant on a central clearing house to allow it; it may be a state change that represents the transfer of ownership of a digital asset like a ENS domain name alias; it might be a more complex application like USDC that enables a stable dollar-like currency to compose with the rest of the blockchain ecosystem. These are some use cases already occurring; there are other ways to achieve similar (like using PayPal instead of USDC) but all have different considerations and costs/benefits.

Re: Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if the vast majority of the users in the network come to clear consensus on forking the protocol to enact a single change, they can do so. This is not a bad thing, it’s similar to how we fork our laws in the real world as we realize they contain pitfalls and loopholes. This is very different from individual transaction disputes on a VISA-like protocol, and the DAO fork doesn’t suggest that transaction level disp…

> it’s similar to how we fork our laws in the real world as we realize they contain pitfalls and loopholes I don't think politics work like you think they do. If the opposition could just "fork the law" when they don't like what the government is doing, there'd be millions of sovereign countries by now.

If you don’t like part of Ethereum’s protocol, you can fork it today. It’s open source. It doesn’t mean anybody will follow your chain.

Re: Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

#139

The letter has some good and bad. Good because it advocates for more regulation and consumer protection, and points out some obvious concerns with crypto like energy expenditure in proof of work. Bad because the letter misrepresents the technology and paints privacy as a purely criminal behavior, and suggests the entire technology sector is useless. > Similarly, most public blockchain-based financial products are a d…

I think the chat analogy is twice broken. Firstly, the equivalents are something like: Bitcoin some chat system where anyone can see all the messages but not necessarily who sent them Regular banking private chatting but the government, those in chats, and the chat service provider can get detailed access to logs. A bit like email but with more government access. Privacy coins a bit like E2E but maybe chat participan…

The idea of E2EE in chat is that the chat operator does not have access to the data, and so even the government cannot request this data (and build surveillance mechanisms around it).

I don’t agree with your other point. Whether somebody spends $1 or $1000 on an abortion in the US, they deserve the same degree of privacy, or at least the option to achieve privacy. Replace this scenario with any other that might like to take advantage of E2EE, like a dissident or political activist.

Re: Letter in Support of Responsible Fintech Policy

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying a use for a car is to turn the wheels when you press the accelerator - technically true but meaningless. What problem does > timestamped, censorship-resistant and tamper-proof ledger of cryptographically signed messages. solve? _That_ is the question that people aren't answering.

The engine’s use is to turn energy into mechanical motion, and from that we can build a variety of utility on top. The chain’s use is to provide a secure layer for signed messages. It might be a dissident writing a message that cannot be revoked by their government; it might be a transfer of value from user A to B that is not reliant on a central clearing house to allow it; it may be a state change that represents th…

> The engine’s use is to turn energy into mechanical motion, and from that we can build a variety of utility on top. The chain’s use is to provide a secure layer for signed messages.

I'm genuinely beginning to think you're trolling here.

> It might be a dissident writing a message that cannot be revoked by their government; it might be a transfer of value from user A to B that is not reliant on a central clearing house to allow it; it may be a state change that represents the transfer of ownership of a digital asset like a ENS domain name alias; it might be a more complex application like USDC that enables a stable dollar-like currency to compose with the rest of the blockchain ecosystem.

We're over a decade into cryptocurrencies, and years into the web3 world, and we're still talking about "might"? For comparison, kubernetes is a year younger than the term web3, and it is widely used across the world, with well documented solutions to problems.

Further, none of the use cases you mentioned actually work, or if they do they worked without a blockchain underneath them.

> It might be a dissident writing a message that cannot be revoked by their government

We've had that for over 30 years [0]. Putting that on a blockchain doesn't actually help.

> it might be a transfer of value from user A to B that is not reliant on a central clearing house to allow it

I do like this one because it's pretty much the textbook example of what's wrong with web3. This should be it's big selling point except 1) I can trade cash/gold/share certs with someone in person/via mail, 2) it's _way_ too expensive to use for normal transactions meaning that 3) People rely on services like coinbase (for coins) or OpenSEA (for NFTs), which are central clearing houses that you have to trust and abide by the rules of. The first link I found states that Coinbase holds over 11% [1] of the crypto market cap, you're _way_ past the point of "you're holding it wrong" here. If the usage of the solution requires throwing away the primary benefit of the solution, it's not a solution to the problem.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy

[1]

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