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Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

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Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#521

Post by astrange »

qiskit wrote: post #451
dqpb wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US and Germany are allies. In fact, I believe “German” is the largest ancestry group in the US. Besides which, it’s extremely common for entities to invest in mutually beneficial agreements with other entities.

> The US and Germany are allies. An ally doesn't firebomb a nation, murder thousands of innocent people and forcibly occupy it. Germany is a vassal. > In fact, I believe “German” is the largest ancestry group in the US. Who cares? We are not a german nation. We are an anglo nation. Germans don't have much political power in the US. If they did, we would have been allied with germany during ww2.

Australia is an Anglo nation that thinks they're us. We're a German nation that thinks we're British.

The state we occupied doesn't exist anymore unless you think we're going to re-invade Germany and Japan from our bases there.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#522

Post by markvdb »

lmm wrote: post #506
markvdb wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm open to any system of government that systematically tries to pass John Rawls' veil of ignorance[0] test. In theory, it doesn't even have to be democratic. In practice though, I haven't yet seen any non-democracy get even close. Yes, the Chinese state has made some remarkable positive material achievements for most Chinese. No, it does an absolutely shit job for many of them. Imagine being Uyghur, critical of Xi,…

> I'm open to any system of government that systematically tries to pass John Rawls' veil of ignorance[0] test. In theory, it doesn't even have to be democratic. In practice though, I haven't yet seen any non-democracy get even close. What about somewhere like Singapore (nominally democratic, but with a single party in power for decades and widely seen as authoritarian)? > Imagine being Uyghur, critical of Xi, religi…

> Those are very visible examples, but if you're applying the veil of ignorance test you have to weight by how many people they actually apply to. (I wouldn't be surprised if all of them put together represented a smaller proportion of the population than incarcerated Americans, say). Every government system has some fraction of the population that it "gives up on", that much is unavoidable.

I am deliberately applying an individual level test to the social level. This is not fuzzy utopian everything-should-be-perfect idealism though. Think of it as an extensive test suite to run against a government's policies.

> What about somewhere like Singapore (nominally democratic, but with a single party in power for decades and widely seen as authoritarian)?

EHARDFAIL: active lgbti+ prosecution.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#523

Post by astrange »

olalonde wrote: post #260
em500 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds almost like a parody of an uninformed rant against capitalism. Stock buybacks are a simple standard way to distribute company profit to it's owners (alternative options are dividends, retaining the profits in the balance sheet, or reinvesting them). This is decided by Intel's management and overseen by the board who represent the interest of the stock owners (who are widely dispersed and include lots of p…

Subsidies are always bad for the common citizen so no, it is not acting in the interest of German/European citizen. Subsidies are the product of flawed economical thinking even when "national interest" is used as a BS justification.

The "never spend on anything or get into debt" mindset is common, but it's odd to find it on the forum of a VC firm. Just because something is called "subsidies" doesn't mean you don't get things back in return.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#524

Post by mantas »

alaricus wrote: post #354
mantas wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selling off allies in eastern europe to Russia is a good strategy? That's a good way to start WW3, on Russian side...

Increasing trade with Russia is the most effective way to avoid a war. When goods and services don't cross borders, armies will.

Fun thing is, USSR was contained with little trade. For the past 30 years we had trade and now we have Ukraine war.

Same for China. It was contained for some time. Then West propped up China via trade and now China is starting to flex it's muscles.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#525

Post by hungryhobo »

sk0g wrote: post #509
hungryhobo wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i disagree, there's absolute nothing preventing an ordinary Chinese from taking a exam and become someone that actually has influence over domestic policies. Elections aren't the only ways a legitimate government can be formed.

Democracy means you can alter the future direction of your country by simply voting, which took me 15 minutes. Don't think joining a party with clear views and goals would let you have any significant effect on its trajectory without decades and lots of luck.

i dont think thats a strength as you make it out to be

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#526

Post by Paradigma11 »

alaricus wrote: post #107
jakobov wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about national security. A fab is necessary for national security

Subsidizing an American company is not necessary for Germany's security. In fact, it undermines it.

The factory is located on german soil, so if push comes to shove it is a german factory.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#527

Post by lmm »

markvdb wrote: post #522
lmm wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm open to any system of government that systematically tries to pass John Rawls' veil of ignorance[0] test. In theory, it doesn't even have to be democratic. In practice though, I haven't yet seen any non-democracy get even close. What about somewhere like Singapore (nominally democratic, but with a single party in power for decades and widely seen as authoritarian)? > Imagine being Uyghur, critical of Xi, religi…

> Those are very visible examples, but if you're applying the veil of ignorance test you have to weight by how many people they actually apply to. (I wouldn't be surprised if all of them put together represented a smaller proportion of the population than incarcerated Americans, say). Every government system has some fraction of the population that it "gives up on", that much is unavoidable. I am deliberately applyin…

> I am deliberately applying an individual level test to the social level. This is not fuzzy utopian everything-should-be-perfect idealism though. Think of it as an extensive test suite to run against a government's policies.

OK, but that doesn't answer the question. What's the pass/fail criterion for your test suite? For China to be such a particularly bad case, it seems like you must be focusing on those particular groups and weighting them more highly than in the actual veil of ignorance test (where one assumes an equal chance of being anyone), no?

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#528

Post by Shadonototra »

astrange wrote: post #520
Shadonototra wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is in EU's interest to keep trading with Russia It is not in US's interest to let EU keep trading with Russia USA wants the EU to be their giant marketplace where they can sell their culture and products USA also wants to weaken Russia so they can finally contain China North, East, West and South Seems like you were sleeping the past century, blurry days ahead!

> It is in EU's interest to keep trading with Russia Russia's been blatantly assassinating people across Europe for years and would invade Poland in a second for personal pleasure even if it caused an economic loss for them again. They haven't evolved past Mongol horde methods of living with their neighbors and are relying on everyone else always taking the "rational" result of appeasing them rather than fighting bac…

the US has been blatantly assassinating people across the Middle East and across the entire American continent

They haven't evolved past Far West horde methods of living with their neighbors, they are killing each other with firearms and countless death in schools

They let their people die, and their house burn because they have no money

They impose trade sanction to whoever doesn't want to knee and show their submission

They'll also impose their military base in your country [1]

Look at the evolution of Russia past 3 decades, and look how it has improved significantly, same can be said with China, they are barely in debt, what can be said about the USA? during that timeline

Ohhhh, yeah, the USA can trade with Saudi Arabia, no bid deal there ;)

But yeah they are good at seducing people, so the pill is easier to penetrate, i will give that to you

[1] https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-05-16/Japanese-protest-U-S-m...

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#529

Post by gpvos »

LeanderK wrote: post #213
gpvos wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so still: what is the company making the next-best chip making machines, using the next-best technology after EUV?

what if there are none that are really comparable? I don't think we can go back to those huge transistors

Well, in that case I want to know, so that would also be a valid answer to my question.

You can do a lot with 6502s, which are still being made. (And we can probably make better than that. 80486s?)

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#530

Post by alaricus »

42e6e8c8-f7b8-4 wrote: post #233
alaricus wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subsidizing an American company is not necessary for Germany's security. In fact, it undermines it.

There will be a huge knowledge transfer into Germany during this process. Fab's are fabulously intricate and difficult to run. $5.5 billion to teach your populace how to make chips? Worth it.

Companies like Intel don't transfer knowledge. In fact, they often suck local talent out.
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