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EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

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Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#881
post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When in history has interoperability not been a catalyst for innovation? Look at everything people do in browsers now. Or if that's not to your taste, perhaps the era of BASIC is a better example. Not all standards are good, but a decent standard is better, or at least much more practically useful, than a lot of better but incompatible proprietary equivalents. Of course it doesn't have to be mandated, and in the past…

When in history has interoperability not been a catalyst for innovation? Most of it, including most of the history of computers. Competition almost always breeds innovation. It's basic economics, and why people get upset by monopolies and such.

OK. We like competition. But the “almost” part is a little bit underplayed here. It doesn’t “almost always” breed innovation. Sometimes it breeds 50 different horribly positioned walled gardens. The consumer loses, the lack of interoperability becomes a tragedy of the commons, and our landfills are full of garbage nobody needs. Case in point: Home automation. I challenge you to scroll through the full list of things you can integrate with Google Home and try to justify why there needs to be this many different proprietary ways to interconnect devices. Home automation is not a new market, either: the X10 standard has been around since 1975.

This same kind of madness, of course, totally already exists elsewhere. I’m sorry but, out of the hundreds of thousands of different power connectors, most of them aren’t even very well thought out to begin with, less “innovative.” It turns out that delivering power to a device isn’t that interesting, but that doesn’t mean you can’t get it horribly wrong. For every MagSafe that has at least some redeeming qualities, there’s about 500 DELL power bricks out there. And for something that is effectively delivering small amounts of low voltage DC power, in fact often one of about 2 or 3 different voltages, it’s sad that you have to scour the earth for chargers that match the pinout of your device.

But wait a minute. We’re not even talking about laptops, but essentially just mobile phones and cameras. So where’s the innovative competitor to USB-C that we’re all so worried about getting stomped on by the EU? Even Apple has adopted USB-C for almost everything except iPhone. micro USB hardly exists on new phones, even the budget phones are switching to USB-C.

The market doesn’t just automatically do the right thing. Apple is simply too powerful for market forces alone to compel them to use a “standard” charger, and actually, the friction of changing something that works probably makes it resistant against that, but just because that’s the case does not mean it is the right way to go for consumers or the world in general, in the long term. And once enough people are tired of that non-sense, they turn to regulation. And I’m sure regulation like this is annoying—what does the EU know about connectivity and mobile phone design—but it’s probably relieving to Apple, because it roughly solves the problem of having to reconcile it: they either do it, or they are in violation of the law. Problem solved!

And no innovation was harmed, because plugging phones in is not that interesting.

P.S.: Interoperability absolutely breeds innovation, and it does not mean no competition, it builds a framework for competition. Standards do obviously limit what you can do, but in exchange they open many doors that would otherwise be closed. Please tell me you don’t think the “innovation” from having 30 competing hypertext formats would’ve been the ideal path to “innovation” for the world wide web.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#882
post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

Just imagine if this had been done in the 90s, we’d be stuck on VGA cables for all video and wouldn’t have hi-def TV. Strict regulation causes ossification.

The EU did it before, forcing phone manufacturers to move to micro-usb https://www.wired.com/2009/06/europe-gets-universal-cellphon... From memory, Apple argued for an exception and got it approved for its products.

So, having this kind of directive doesn't block special products, nor has any specific impact on the field evolving healthily. If anything, without this kind of regulation we'd probably still have 95 different charging cable standards.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#883
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The average person would have to pick and choose stations Stations would just have two nozzles on their pumps.

What if Ford operates their own stations? Would they still have two plugs? (see: Tesla superchargers)

This is pure legislation-brain worry about things that markets resolve.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will EU block innovation? It already has. Tesla's connector is nicer (you can call that subjective but it isn't) and the supercharging network in the US is deploying the clunky standard sort of connector as well. If EU legislation were universal, that would preclude any future where the superior connector is licensed and takes over from the crappy designed-by-committee alternative, because Tesla would be forced to…

> Legislators deciding who gets to be VHS and who has to be Betamax is bad, actually. They didn't make the decision. It's more like legislators observing that Betamax is failing and deciding that it's in everyone's best interests to tell Sony that they have to adopt VHS instead of creating confusion in the marketplace. > Tesla's connector is nicer Tesla's system only goes up to 400 volts. CCS goes up to 800 volts. Th…

It's more like legislators observing that Betamax is failing and deciding that it's in everyone's best interests to tell Sony that they have to adopt VHS instead of creating confusion in the marketplace.

Or like 1996 when Apple was failing and everyone should have been forced to standardize on Windows.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#885
post #878
post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument would sound less hollow if there weren’t two existing superior (from a user experience perspective) alternatives already on the market. Apple’s Lightning (thinner than USB-C) and MagSafe (safer than USB-C for charging laptops… so glad Apple is transitioning back to it for M2 Airs)

So in the 15 years since micro-USB was developed, that is just one vendor which has been able to produce something better, and it happens to be the most valuable corporation in the world with access to economics of scale that no other manufacturer could compete with. Are you saying that's a valid justification that allowing manufacturers the freedom to innovate on charging ports is more important than interoperabilit…

And your argument is that because innovation has, arguably, slowed (not even halted!) you are happy mandating the current standard.

It's a good thing there is so little innovation coming out of the EU or else their wreckless legislators could have actual impact.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple could have at least attempted to standardize his port, but they did not because they charged money when a third pary uses their proprietary ports. So stop crying for poor Apple, they have paid PR people to defend them with better arguments anyway.

How often does the world willingly standardize on something invented by a single company? Even if they had released it into public domain, USB-C was going to happen anyway.

All the time. For example, Garmin created the ANT+ protocol for wirelessly communicating sensor data, such as with bicycle electronics. ANT+ is the standard because Garmin actively promoted it as an open standard and encouraged competitors to adopt it.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm willing to bet that your friends and family wouldn't be happy if the European Union would mandate using IRC everywhere. Heck, why not go further and stick to the good old ntalk [1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_(software)

Interoperability of major chat software will be mandated by the EU in the coming years (around 2023 or 2024 hopefully).

It will be very impressive if they get this to actually work, as opposed to an endless flood of unstoppable spam forever.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#888
post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why "What about innovation?" is taken seriously as an argument anyway. USB-C is more than adequate, we could coast with it for the next hundred years. Nobody is kept up at night by the lack of innovation in AC power plugs, the standards countries have settled on today, while not all equivalent, are all generally satisfactory in practice. Problem solved; stop fixing that which ain't broke and move on to ot…

This argument would sound less hollow if there weren’t two existing superior (from a user experience perspective) alternatives already on the market. Apple’s Lightning (thinner than USB-C) and MagSafe (safer than USB-C for charging laptops… so glad Apple is transitioning back to it for M2 Airs)

I'll add to the chorus saying lightning is terrible. I have a mix of devices using lightning and USB-C. I have had zero issues with USB-C, in fact I still charge my phone every night with the USB-C cable that came with my Pixel 1. I've never had to replace a single one, so much so that I have a nest of spare, unused, USB-C cables in a drawer. Meanwhile, lightning cables are a continuous roulette of failure - I would guess I've purchased at least a dozen replacement lightning cables over that same time period.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#889
post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the case in the US, either. How much influence do you think one person in the US, one of hundreds of millions of people, should normally have? Your power to influence policy is obviously going to dilute the further up the chain of government you go. You could involve yourself in local politics where the population of people is much smaller (and consequentially, your influence is much larger), or you could…

> This isn't the case in the US, either. I was paraphrasing Gilens and Page, from the linked research article. In their words, they found that "economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence". If there has been subsequent research which con…

This reading of their study is well known to be false; what actually happens is that most of the population agrees on almost all policies, more often than they should, and that's the reason why they're in winning coalitions.

https://www.vox.com/2016/5/9/11502464/gilens-page-oligarchy-...

Since the US is education-polarized, rich people are also more left wing than average, as are people who donate to political campaigns, and the more they donate the more left wing they are. (This is called "being Shor pilled".)

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#890

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitution gives US congress the right to set standards for weights and measures, which unless you use a very strict reading says they can set charging standards. I wish they would. Tesla (and Nissan) as early movers 10 years ago can be forgiven for not adopting a standard charger, but now they need to update to the standard. (IIRC both are planning on it)

Reading charging standards as "weights and measures" is on par with classifying bumblebees as fish. Not only aren't these strict readings, they aren't even sensible.

> par with classifying bumblebees as fish

Society claiming this is wrong and being correct is exactly balanced by society claiming whales aren't fish and being incorrect.

(Whales are fish because they're descendants of fish and are more closely related to salmon than sharks are. The same goes for you. You're also a fish.)

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