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Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

electronicsweekly.com

481–490 of 593 posts

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the false dichotomy? Does political freedom automatically contradict with economic prosperity for some reason now? Born and raised in China, I fail to see how the last 10 years of erosion in freedom has yielded any better results economically. Please don’t buy the government propaganda that legitimizes everything from stupid to evil as a price that has to be paid to raise people out of poverty.

Nowhere did I say that economic freedom and political freedom are mutually exclusive. What I do protest however is the idea that only political freedom can be considered a legitimate form of freedom. I am making the case that: - economic freedom is an equally valid form of freedom. - societies can make up their own minds on what sort of freedoms they value most. As for "erosion of freedom in the last 10 years in Chin…

The "economic freedom" you describe is not freedom. A better description is "bread and circuses", after the way Roman emperors supposedly kept people happy. The West is familiar with societies like that, because it also describes most of our history. When the elites try to keep the people they depend on prosperous and happy, it's not freedom. It's just common sense for them.

Freedom is not about the freedom of the well-off and the majority. It's always about the freedom of the minorities, the oppressed, and the different. Only their opinions matter. You can only determine the degree of freedom in the society by asking those who don't fit in.

I know many people who come from small towns and rural areas. Places where everyone knows everyone, everyone is part of the community, and everyone helps those in need. Places that are toxic to people who are different. For many of those people, freedom started when they moved to a big city. A city where nobody cares what you are and what you do, where you can safely be yourself, and where you can find other people like you.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#482
post #441
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Germany used to have a semiconductor industry like Intermetall (acquired by micronas acquired by TDK). The problem is that IMHO German automotive industry is not willing to pay a cent more than necessary. How about the three fabs that Bosch has in Germany? Or Infineon, X-Fab, Globalfoundries, TI, Prema, Elmos (now Siltech), Vishay, Nexperia?

Which of them can make a 2010-level ARM chip?

GF in FDX22, possibly also with eMRAM noadays. Surely not sure fathers 2010 cmos process...

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#483
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about national security. A fab is necessary for national security

Subsidizing an American company is not necessary for Germany's security. In fact, it undermines it.

The fab is in Germany. In a scenario where the US and Germany are at odds Germany is the one with a fab. I doubt it weakens Germany's position unless they sacrificed funding some German chip maker, but I don't think they have anything near as huge as Intel.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think governments are trying to encourage companies to do what they want? Or are companies telling companies what they want? Why do we have a situation where companies have so much and are given so much, and the people have so little. But pay for government largesse. If you ask me, Intel and all those companies should never have grown so large. But, if you have to spend that money, why not use it to create a g…

I think Germany is using the $5 billion dollars to encourage intel to build there plant in Germany rather than somewhere else, but I think your ideas sound great too. can Germany grow an intel for $5 billion? It seems to me it’s like hiring a contractor. I could learn plumbing but it would be a lot more expensive than hiring someone. I don’t disagree with you that companies are given so much and have so much. I just…

Cheers - but can a country like Germany afford not to have a supply of its own chips in this day and age?

Its pretty equivalent to food and energy security, I'd say.

Why it isn't a major concern, I don't know.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#485
post #458
post #456

I have to wonder if deglobalization and expensive onshoring is as much of herd mentality as glocalization and offshoring have been. Sure, if the no college white males of the US get their demographic last hurrah and elect a populist isolationist who pulls America out of NATO, then, yeah, it's bad times for a rational set of international interdependencies. Or, if the Taiwan and Korean foundries are the best on the pl…

39/47 regretting brexit is not a solid majority. https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-po...

Regret https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-b...

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#486
post #432
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's in Germanys interest to f*ck Russia up as much as they can financially (and in terms of weapon shipments ( in the hope it ends the war sooner. And diversify their energy. Germany's intrest is for Ukraine to win as quick as possible Before the war Germany at least had a reasonable sounding argument (peace through trade) but it's been proven totally wrong they need to admit they were wrong and move on

>Ukraine to win as quick as possible It is not possible for Ukraine to win, they are slowly but methodically getting their country destroyed. What does Germany lighting money on fire funding this destruction do for German interests? How does this solve their energy needs? It doesn't, it along with sanctions makes energy more expensive. Where they used to be able to buy all energy in Euro's, now some of these purchase…

Ah yes, the word soup defense of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, do tell us more!

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#487
post #458
post #456

I have to wonder if deglobalization and expensive onshoring is as much of herd mentality as glocalization and offshoring have been. Sure, if the no college white males of the US get their demographic last hurrah and elect a populist isolationist who pulls America out of NATO, then, yeah, it's bad times for a rational set of international interdependencies. Or, if the Taiwan and Korean foundries are the best on the pl…

39/47 regretting brexit is not a solid majority. https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-po...

Brexit regret is always a solid majority in the minds of the diehards, who claimed the day after the 2016 referendum (seriously) that a) millions of Leave voters already regretted their votes, so b) a do-over was the only right and proper thing to do.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#488
post #439

Elon Musk would be way cooler if he built 10 chip fabs instead of buying twitter

doesn't one state of art fab cost more than that?

Ah, some estimates put it as high as $20B, some as low as $3B.

Still, two nice fabs would be cooler than twitter.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nikon and Canon, in that order. Neither has managed to produce EUV machines, but they were somewhat competitive at higher nodes.

That's really interesting, I had not heard those names in this space before. I would have expected Applied Materials. Maybe Nikon and Canon are suppliers of optics to the more industry specific companies?

Nikon actually supplied the machines for Intel through their 10nm debacle. Canon has completely retired into the low end market, but used to be massive. You're right that I forgot about Applied Materials.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A connected world is not a guaranteed sufficient condition for peace. But that does not mean it's not a necessary condition for peace. One could argue that without economic interconnectivity, Europe could have fought WW1 much earlier, or would have had wars much more often.

Eh have you looked at the list of wars in Europe in the 19th century?

As I recall, it was much less that previous centuries.

I'd start the 19th century after the Napoleon wars for this argument, of course.

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