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Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

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Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#451

Post by qiskit »

dqpb wrote: post #263
qiskit wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's about national security. A fab is necessary for national security How does germany funding a foreign/non-german company's fab part of national security? What about expelling a foreign occupying force? If the germans cared about national security, shouldn't they be looking in that first? If germany was funding a german company's fab, it would be national security. What germany is doing is paying tribute to a do…

The US and Germany are allies. In fact, I believe “German” is the largest ancestry group in the US. Besides which, it’s extremely common for entities to invest in mutually beneficial agreements with other entities.

> The US and Germany are allies.

An ally doesn't firebomb a nation, murder thousands of innocent people and forcibly occupy it. Germany is a vassal.

> In fact, I believe “German” is the largest ancestry group in the US.

Who cares? We are not a german nation. We are an anglo nation. Germans don't have much political power in the US. If they did, we would have been allied with germany during ww2.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#453

Post by qiskit »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #306
qiskit wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's about national security. A fab is necessary for national security How does germany funding a foreign/non-german company's fab part of national security? What about expelling a foreign occupying force? If the germans cared about national security, shouldn't they be looking in that first? If germany was funding a german company's fab, it would be national security. What germany is doing is paying tribute to a do…

> What about expelling a foreign occupying force? If the germans cared about national security, shouldn't they be looking in that first? *looks over at Ukraine* Yes, I'm sure the Germans are eager to expel American troops right now.

> looks over at Ukraine

What? It's only wrong for russia to occupy a foreign nation?

> Yes, I'm sure the Germans are eager to expel American troops right now.

If the germans were smart, they'd take this as an opportunity to liberate themselves. Besides what do they care? Trading one foreign master for another.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#454

Post by colinmhayes »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #397
throwaway4good wrote: post #122

What is even funnier is that Intel has plenty money and is profitable and dividend paying even though nearly all of Intel's fabs are in the US (and thus suffering from the high cost level compared to Asia is a part justification for these subsidies).

They lost $ 20 billion in the last year.

They made $20 billion last year.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#455

Post by MrLeap »

madrox wrote: post #336
FooBarWidget wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human rights is more than just political rights or speech. Hundreds of millions of Chinese lifted out of poverty is a huge win for human rights. When you're poor, you're not free. Having grown up with dirty streets and beggars, you can't possibly imagine how big a deal it is for me to see my hometown transforming into a modern metropolis, and how my grandparents-in-law (in a different city, in a rural area) finaly ha…

> It's because Chinese define democracy by whether they believe their government works for their interest and whether they yield good results, not by how their government is elected. I'm going to be thinking about this sentence for the rest of my life

That sentence stuck out to me too. It makes me wonder if the nature of America's representative democracy lowers the threshold by which our elected officials actually have to do a good job / serve the will of the people.

They constantly fall short, even of the narrow interests of whatever their particular constituency is. But there's kind of a floor where we just throw up our hands and say "WELL THEY WERE VOTED IN"

Do our officials receive less psychic pressure? Does the Chinese government work harder to align the populous' desires with their actions?

Pretty fascinating rabbit holes.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#456

Post by Zigurd »

I have to wonder if deglobalization and expensive onshoring is as much of herd mentality as glocalization and offshoring have been. Sure, if the no college white males of the US get their demographic last hurrah and elect a populist isolationist who pulls America out of NATO, then, yeah, it's bad times for a rational set of international interdependencies.

Or, if the Taiwan and Korean foundries are the best on the planet, everyone should contribute to the international stability it takes to maintain access to those resources. Almost every part of the tech industry benefits from global low-friction trade.

Brexit regret is a solid majority opinion in the UK. The US recently lowered trade barriers to solar panels from China. Hopefully sanity prevails. While it is possible to overdo the offshoring and JIT inventories, increased trade volume makes everyone more prosperous.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#457

Post by dwallin »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #411
PontifexMinimus wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more interconnected the global economy is, the more single points of failure there are. No thanks, I'd rather society be more resilient.

> more single points of failure Multiple single points of failure is an oxymoron. Either there is one point of failure and it's "single", or there are multiple and by definition no longer "single".

You are being pedantic. The expression "multiple points of failure" is commonly used to refer to a single system that can be disrupted in multiple ways. They are are clearly referring to multiple independent systems where each system has its own singular point of failure.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#458

Post by robk »

Zigurd wrote: post #456

I have to wonder if deglobalization and expensive onshoring is as much of herd mentality as glocalization and offshoring have been. Sure, if the no college white males of the US get their demographic last hurrah and elect a populist isolationist who pulls America out of NATO, then, yeah, it's bad times for a rational set of international interdependencies. Or, if the Taiwan and Korean foundries are the best on the pl…

39/47 regretting brexit is not a solid majority. https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-po...

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#459

Post by guerrilla »

flohofwoe wrote: post #157
dhoe wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spot on and I feel a lot of the comments here miss this context. Germany has tried this before and it was a gigantic waste - they build a fab somewhere at massive cost, claim it as victory because it's "invested locally", zero ecosystem materializes around it, and ten years later the fab is obsolete and shuts down. It helps nobody except the chip company.

Erm, maybe I'm out of the loop, but hasn't Dresden developed into a fairly healthy technology "hotspot" (at least for "German standards")? (e.g. AFAIK the former AMD fab is now GlobalFoundries: https://www.silicon-saxony.de/nc/mitglieder/mitglieder-foerd... )

That's what I've always heard and searches seem to confirm [1]

1. https://www.seedtable.com/cities/dresden

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#460

Post by markvdb »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #304
madrox wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I ultimately believe you're correct (along with open borders and travel) I wish there were more rigorous proofs that this were the case. I think about the line in West Wing: "Free trade is essential for human rights...the end of that sentence is 'we hope because nothing else has worked.' ...Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not…

Human rights is more than just political rights or speech. Hundreds of millions of Chinese lifted out of poverty is a huge win for human rights. When you're poor, you're not free. Having grown up with dirty streets and beggars, you can't possibly imagine how big a deal it is for me to see my hometown transforming into a modern metropolis, and how my grandparents-in-law (in a different city, in a rural area) finaly ha…

I'm open to any system of government that systematically tries to pass John Rawls' veil of ignorance[0] test. In theory, it doesn't even have to be democratic. In practice though, I haven't yet seen any non-democracy get even close.

Yes, the Chinese state has made some remarkable positive material achievements for most Chinese. No, it does an absolutely shit job for many of them. Imagine being Uyghur, critical of Xi, religious, lgbti+, black or a combination of the above.

What would it take for a national government to get more passable results on the veil of ignorance test? Try the thought experiment!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position

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