Live data from Hacker News

Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

electronicsweekly.com

421–430 of 593 posts

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#421

Wow. These deals amaze me. Imagine you got given subsidies to live somewhere. I'm not talking about your wages - I'm talking about something extra. Well that is a direct equivalent here. How any governance structure can think this is ok boggles the mind. Is it not clear how we already live in a fascist state - where government + corporations are working together at the people's expense? $5.5 billion.

Serious question - How do you propose governments encourage companies to do what they want? Yes it’s a subsidy but it also seems like the government in this case is essentially buying a service. I guess Germany would hire people to build this factory directly rather than paying a foreign company to do it? Which I imagine would be more expensive if it’s even possible to do. Do you think there are better ways to do thi…

Do you think governments are trying to encourage companies to do what they want?

Or are companies telling companies what they want?

Why do we have a situation where companies have so much and are given so much, and the people have so little. But pay for government largesse.

If you ask me, Intel and all those companies should never have grown so large. But, if you have to spend that money, why not use it to create a genuine home grown solution? Where is the German Intel? Wouldn't a German Intel provide the resilience you really want?

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#422
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I ultimately believe you're correct (along with open borders and travel) I wish there were more rigorous proofs that this were the case. I think about the line in West Wing: "Free trade is essential for human rights...the end of that sentence is 'we hope because nothing else has worked.' ...Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not…

Human rights is more than just political rights or speech. Hundreds of millions of Chinese lifted out of poverty is a huge win for human rights. When you're poor, you're not free. Having grown up with dirty streets and beggars, you can't possibly imagine how big a deal it is for me to see my hometown transforming into a modern metropolis, and how my grandparents-in-law (in a different city, in a rural area) finaly ha…

This is interesting to read, I'm curious how this diverges/converges from the observation that:

In the West the words for referring to someone formally are words that used to refer to the nobility exclusively (Mister, Misses in English comes from 'Master, Mistress', Monsieur, Madamme in French, Señor, Señora in Spanish, derive from 'My Lord, My Lady' respectively).

So in the West, the cultural transformation was more than mere equality of political voice, but more, that 'we are all nobles', and (domestic?) political history in the West is the ever expanding circle of this inherent nobleness of all (arguably right down to trends in current American social issues).

'Rights' was something that, in the West, was first contested between the nobility and the King, then in the modern period between the wealthy merchant class and the nobility/royalty. James Madison, one of the American Revolution leaders, writes explicitly about how the masses are incapable of the requirements of absolute democracy. So there's definitely something to it when you point out that 'Democracy' in the West wasn't immediately interested in conferring a voice onto every Tom, Dick, and Harry (we'll just set aside the status of women and slaves)

You might be off about 'latter half of the 20th century' bringing electorialism to bear, rather the late 19th century/early 20th century was when, finally, the proletariat started demanding its rights, e.g. The Mexican Civil War that saw the establishment of collective farming lands, the struggle of labor and unions in America and Europe to secure worker's conditions backed by the threat of socialism (which, from Marx himself, is about endignity [ennoblement] of everyone's time), all of which, funny enough, have been desolving since the 90s (NAFTA eradicatd collective farming in Mexico).

Democracy in the West is more than a mere political configuration, its also the cultural precept (however divergent in interpretation), in stark contrast to what you're describing is the history of this idea in China, where, dare I say, the idea of ennoblement stops at a hard boundary unlike in the West.

P.S. I don't know a Chinese language so it may be that the words for formally addressing someone also share this genealogy of descending from terms formerly meant exclusively for nobility.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#423
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> more interconnectedness = less % chance of war What evidence do you have to make this claim? A simple thought experiment proves the counter. Let's say there is a population on one island, and another population on another island, and these populations have no way of reaching each other or even knowing of each others existence. These not-connected populations are guaranteed not to go to war. However, give one of the…

If you like ad absurdum arguments: if you connect the countries together so much, they eventually decide to become one country and the chance of war goes down, not up (excluding civil war)

Austria, World War II. Some people saw annexation, others saw reunification, others still saw a bunch of cowards surrendering without firing a single shot.

With all of these things, context matters. If memory serves, Austria being an independent state was one of the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, so if that had been the last act instead of the opening chapter, there still would have been hell to pay. Perhaps not on a par with Caesar crossing the Rubicon, but definitely starting something that requires a resolution.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question - How do you propose governments encourage companies to do what they want? Yes it’s a subsidy but it also seems like the government in this case is essentially buying a service. I guess Germany would hire people to build this factory directly rather than paying a foreign company to do it? Which I imagine would be more expensive if it’s even possible to do. Do you think there are better ways to do thi…

Do you think governments are trying to encourage companies to do what they want? Or are companies telling companies what they want? Why do we have a situation where companies have so much and are given so much, and the people have so little. But pay for government largesse. If you ask me, Intel and all those companies should never have grown so large. But, if you have to spend that money, why not use it to create a g…

I think Germany is using the $5 billion dollars to encourage intel to build there plant in Germany rather than somewhere else, but I think your ideas sound great too. can Germany grow an intel for $5 billion? It seems to me it’s like hiring a contractor. I could learn plumbing but it would be a lot more expensive than hiring someone.

I don’t disagree with you that companies are given so much and have so much. I just wonder if it’s idealistic to think it’s easy to just “create your own intel”. Maybe not it’s not like Intel is without competitors. But just like the Plumber example, even if it’s not about the money, do they want to spend the time on developing a skill that may not be one of their core competencies? It’s not that I don’t get where you’re coming from ideologically, I’m just not sure where you’re coming from practically. But I’m no expert, maybe they should try!

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#425

It will be clear that this money was wasted within ten years. What a government needs to do to attract real manufacturing entrepreneurs: - pro family policies (for people) - pro immigration (for people) - cut environmental laws (for capex make-right) - cut business taxes (for gm make-right) - cut personal taxes (for people) - fight back against china-sponsored economic maneuvering at the multilateral level (to create…

Sorry, I am a bit confused about these parts - how does it help manufacturing enterprises? (I am not saying it doesn't, I just don't understand, hah.)

> pro family policies (for people); cut personal taxes (for people)

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#426
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Sinovac work as well as Pfizer when it comes to preventing hospitilization and death, but requires sufficient boosters. This is shown by this research paper: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.03.22.22272769v... The "Chinese vaccine don't work" talking point is a bad faith myth created by western mainstream media, which misrepresented this study by comparing single- or two-dose Sinovac with 3-dose…

> The "Chinese vaccine don't work" talking point is a bad faith myth created by western mainstream media, which misrepresented this study by comparing single- or two-dose Sinovac with 3-dose Pfizer. This sort of misrepresentation is unfortunately common practice in mainstream western media. This isn’t true, and if you look at table 2 in the paper you link it is obvious. With equal dosing, SinoVac is less effective th…

Yes with equal dose before the third dose it's less effective, but why would one compare the two vaccines based on number of dosis to get effective?

Back when there were fewer variants, the Janssen vaccine only required 1 dose; was Janssen "better" than mRNA, and did "mRNA vaccines not work very well"?

Here in the Netherlands, once Omikron arrived, the Dutch CDC advised everyone to get a booster (third dose). Nobody here counts on Pfizer having enough protection with just 2 doses. Why would anyone then compare 2-dose Pfizer with 2-dose Sinovac?

What matters is the eventual efficacy after sufficient boosters. Besides, we already live in a "booster subscription" reality. Here in the Netherlands, the elderly are encouraged to get a booster every 3 or 4 months. In light of all this, I'd say it's very disingenuous to compare based on number of dosis instead of eventual efficacy.

And you say "even [after 3 doses] it's significantly worse than Pfizer". Where in table 2 do you see that?

Severe/fatal disease:

- Three-dose BNT162B2: 99.2 for 60-69 yr, 99.5 for 70-79 yr, 95.7 for >= 80 yr

- Three-dose Coronavac: 98.5 for 60-69 yr, 96.7 for 70-79 yr, 98.6 for >= 80 yr

Mortality:

- Three-dose BNT162B2: 98.9 for 60-69 yr, 96.0 for >= 80 yr

- Three-dose Coronavac: 98.7 for 60-69 yr, 99.2 for >= 80 yr

I'm sorry, these numbers look nearly identical to me? They're all >= 96% for the elderly.

I think you're looking at the "mild/moderate" section. Yes the numbers there are lower for Sinovac. But so what? Protection against severe/fatal disease and mortality is the most important. That it's less effective at mild/moderate disease prevention doesn't make "Chinese vaccine don't work very well".

Heck if we go back in time before there were so many variants, various studies showed Sinovac as having roughly 70% protection against mild/moderate COVID (depending on country; efficacy is context-dependent). That 70% was then branded by western media as "Chinese vaccines are junk, they don't work at all, because our mRNA vaccines provide 90%+ protection against mild disease". And now Pfizer has only 70% protection against mild omikron but it's still represented as "mRNA vaccines are much superior, the Chinese are fscked until they get their hands on mRNA". Yes, what's wrong with that narrative?

For some reason, outside of the context of comparisons with China, everybody agrees that Pfizer works kinda "meh" against omikron; it's merely "good enough to get the job done". But when comparing with China, all sorts of people are suddenly inclined to represent mRNA as the holy grail that can end the pandemic, which the Chinese unfortunately don't have.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#427
Why Magdeburg? I have a really hard time to find an argument that puts the city in an advantageous position relative to other competitor places (like Dresden, Munich agglomeration, Rhein/Main area, Hamburg agglomeration).

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#428
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

McDonald's is now leaving Russia. A local company is taking over operations there and will operate under a different brand name. https://www.npr.org/2022/05/16/1099079032/mcdonalds-leaving-...

The McDonald's leaving thing was always totally absurd to me for this reason. There are real examples of economic dependence that could and do cause problems. The owners withdrawing ownership though is a pure benefit to Russia. Threemployees get paid by the customers and get supplies from suppliers and all of that is totally unaffected. The only thing that changes is they pay less money to American buisness owners, s…

How is it a benefit? I somehow doubt that with the supply chains interrupted, the new owners will be anywhere as efficient at their business as their predecessors.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#429
post #427

Why Magdeburg? I have a really hard time to find an argument that puts the city in an advantageous position relative to other competitor places (like Dresden, Munich agglomeration, Rhein/Main area, Hamburg agglomeration).

Cheap place to build, cheap place to live, cheap labour, pretty good infrastructure. All of the cities you mentioned are very expensive to built in, but also to live in.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#430
post #171
post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

It is very important for national stability. A highly-interconnected global economy is arguably better at securing international stability.

Given the recent news I think that there is no correlation. Russia and the EU are giving each other the finger and no amount of mutual trade changed Russia's long standing attitude of taking all they can get (of course all global powers do that.) Actually, no trade at all between Russia and the EU would have made that area of the world more stable: the EU won't have to scramble to replace energy providers and no sanction could harm Russia. There would still be a war but nothing else.
Post reply on HN