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Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

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Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#361

Post by colechristensen »

wazoox wrote: post #270
ISL wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very important for national stability. A highly-interconnected global economy is arguably better at securing international stability.

That was the main argument for global trade already in 1914. France was Germany's most important commercial partner, and vice-versa. All German rifles had stocks made from French walnut wood! All French locomotives had German-made tubing! This stupid mantra was repeated ad nauseam after 1991, too, with silly op-eds from Friedman and friends about how two countries with McDonald joints in both can't be at war and simi…

The economic sanctions against Russia really do seem to be creating quite a lot of internal pressure to stop the war in Ukraine which is not going so well.

Without those sanctions, it is quite conceivable that a troubled war effort would not be nearly so much of a problem, but because of the trade dependency Russia feels quite threatened by the consequences of war. Not enough to have prevented it in the first place, but they overreaced.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#362

Post by mschuster91 »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #304
madrox wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I ultimately believe you're correct (along with open borders and travel) I wish there were more rigorous proofs that this were the case. I think about the line in West Wing: "Free trade is essential for human rights...the end of that sentence is 'we hope because nothing else has worked.' ...Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not…

Human rights is more than just political rights or speech. Hundreds of millions of Chinese lifted out of poverty is a huge win for human rights. When you're poor, you're not free. Having grown up with dirty streets and beggars, you can't possibly imagine how big a deal it is for me to see my hometown transforming into a modern metropolis, and how my grandparents-in-law (in a different city, in a rural area) finaly ha…

> It's because Chinese define democracy by whether they believe their government works for their interest and whether they yield good results, not by how their government is elected.

And here is the crux of China's zero-covid policy. Follow the Western lead and run covid run its course? That would be millions of deaths even with Omicron being not as deadly, simply because Sinovax is nowhere near as effective as the mRNA vaccines are. It's too late (and politically unwise, given how CCP propaganda praised its selfmade vaccine) to mass-rollout mRNA vaccines, so the only option that prevents millions of deaths (and so, keeps the "social contract" of freedoms vs. wealth) is to brutally suppress Covid.

The interesting thing will be when the Chinese public deems the zero-covid policy "not good enough"...

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#363

Post by eastbound »

wazoox wrote: post #270
ISL wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very important for national stability. A highly-interconnected global economy is arguably better at securing international stability.

That was the main argument for global trade already in 1914. France was Germany's most important commercial partner, and vice-versa. All German rifles had stocks made from French walnut wood! All French locomotives had German-made tubing! This stupid mantra was repeated ad nauseam after 1991, too, with silly op-eds from Friedman and friends about how two countries with McDonald joints in both can't be at war and simi…

Entering war in 1914, one of the French traditional soldier costume included bright red pants (that made them easy to spot and shoot into on the field). The dye came from Germany. And it was very cheap!

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#364

Post by explaingarlic »

mmastrac wrote: post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

Doesn't feel to me like microchips are in such short supply that any more would significantly contribute to the economy. Am I just unaware of the crisis going on all around me?

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#365

Post by sylware »

lkbm wrote: post #290
sylware wrote: post #132

??? Why intel??? Why not ASML???

I wouldn't be surprised if Germany would also find value in an ASML facility, but as I understand it, ASML doesn't make fabs. They make the tools technology used in fabs. They're different parts of the supply chains. Even if they were both in the same business, it's not like ordering whichever brand you want from Amazon. If ASML wants to build something in Germany, they will, and Germany can incentivize that, but it'…

So the 50 billions euros fund which is supposed to be used to build a EU own top-notch chip foundry will be own and built by the US?

Is this a joke?

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#366

Post by bell-cot »

bell-cot wrote: post #206

Wow. For those old (or well-read enough in history) enough to have a sense of just how dominant Germany once was, world-wide, in science, technology, chemistry, optics, etc. etc....this news feels kinda like a tombstone of German identity.

For those really not familiar with the history - German's global dominance ran from roughly the early 1800's to ~1930. We're talking the era of the German Customs Union - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_customs_union That Union was mostly driven by the Kingdom of Prussia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Prussia

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#367

Post by Matl »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #304
madrox wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I ultimately believe you're correct (along with open borders and travel) I wish there were more rigorous proofs that this were the case. I think about the line in West Wing: "Free trade is essential for human rights...the end of that sentence is 'we hope because nothing else has worked.' ...Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not…

Human rights is more than just political rights or speech. Hundreds of millions of Chinese lifted out of poverty is a huge win for human rights. When you're poor, you're not free. Having grown up with dirty streets and beggars, you can't possibly imagine how big a deal it is for me to see my hometown transforming into a modern metropolis, and how my grandparents-in-law (in a different city, in a rural area) finaly ha…

> Human rights is more than just political rights or speech.

> When you're poor, you're not free.

I appreciate someone 'qualified' making this point. Whenever I tried to argue this in the past, I inherently got dismissed as being in a privileged European position not knowing what I am talking about, (even as an Eastern European), so thanks for your post.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#368

Post by baybal2 »

mlyle wrote: post #258
baybal2 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have just asked why we can't "just move manufacturing out of China:" There are no individual chemical plants, there are huge chemical complexes owned by many companies with own well guarded know hows. There may be 2-4 suppliers in a row producing some intermediary product used in making of only 1 output. Just to make the semiconductor grade hyperpure propanol you need ultrapure catalysts, ultrapure sulphuric acid…

> You need decades just to replicate this. Now you need to move 100+ of such material chains. I think decades is a stretch. Keep in mind most of these chains sprung up in the last 3 decades organically in Taiwan and China (and many of them are still elsewhere-- e.g. BASF is still a titan.) If it's a national priority, you can get some production going a lot faster than this.

> If it's a national priority, you can get some production going a lot faster than this.

Defeating CoVID was too a national priority. Did they manage to build a single new mask manufacturing line?

No, but they actually tried really hard. Dozens of companies were recruited for the effort, and they just gave up after realising that they can't even get a single part in the blowing machine to be made in the US.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#369

Post by rat87 »

alaricus wrote: post #308
justapassenger wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competing with Intel is out of the question for any local chip company. But semiconductors is much much much more than high end CPUs. There’s totally a huge opportunity for local chip companies to grow. And having company like Intel may help, as people who work there will get a lot of know how that they can take to smaller local companies to help them grow.

> Competing with Intel is out of the question for any local chip company. Why? Intell lost the mobile, and is currently losing desktop/server. RISC-V is more promising each passing day. If India can do this, why can't Europe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31243674

https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/27/india_it_would_be_fab...

India is hoping it can convince Intel and TSMC to set up fabs in the country as part of their multibillion-dollar manufacturing expansion blueprint.

Bloomberg reported Tuesday that India's government is making pitches to both companies, backed with a $10 billion subsidy plan that can be used to cover up to half of the cost of a new chipmaking plant. The plan also covers new plants for display manufacturers.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#370

Post by eastbound »

munk-a wrote: post #338
madrox wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I ultimately believe you're correct (along with open borders and travel) I wish there were more rigorous proofs that this were the case. I think about the line in West Wing: "Free trade is essential for human rights...the end of that sentence is 'we hope because nothing else has worked.' ...Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not…

Interconnectedness exposes your countrymen more to other countries cultures - it is much harder to war against a people who you can't paint as a demonic "other". I don't really think that the private industrial sourcing concerns have any real pressure to apply against war - those industries aren't the government and, even with modern supply chain minimalism, it'll take a while for one or two industry sectors to reall…

There are ethnic rivalries today in France. I’ll spare you the list, but lowly are paying with their life for some, and girls with their intimacy. It’s systematic in most big cities, anyone who hasn’t been bullied isn’t really living the diversity (spare me the “I know a guy and he’s very nice” – you haven’t lived the real diversity, the unchosen one).

Sometimes, when it doesn’t touch you, you have some fancy theoretical poetry about it; the closer you are, the more you notice how the other is, indeed, wow, gruesome.

Not all cultures can mix.

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