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Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

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Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#321
post #171
post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

It is very important for national stability. A highly-interconnected global economy is arguably better at securing international stability.

You have a little feedback loop here because if you optimize only at a global scale and ignore local scale, you could create unstable local scale systems which destablize the global system as well. Hence the many current failures of neoliberalism.

And of course, as you point out, if you only optimize on the local scale and ignore the global scale, you'll also create an unstable system. Hence the failures of extreme nationalism we've seen historically.

Both cases can lead to instability because of their relationship to one another (the global system is composed of localized systems). You need to look at balance across the entire picture, which means you can't just ignore your own country and its people but you also can't ignore the rest of the world, either. It's tough trying to create a good stable global system that isn't disenfranchizing some large segment of the population.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are refering to Robotron, which mostly is known for their Z80s knockoffs (which often were less buggy than the originals.) Given that they did not create chips of their new design, I would not describe them as having been 'strong', though.

Maybe more about AMD having had fabs there, which then transitioned into Globalfoundries?

Hm, "decades" implies GDR ... AMD eventually bought some of Robotron's facilities, though.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#323
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I ultimately believe you're correct (along with open borders and travel) I wish there were more rigorous proofs that this were the case. I think about the line in West Wing: "Free trade is essential for human rights...the end of that sentence is 'we hope because nothing else has worked.' ...Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not…

Human rights is more than just political rights or speech. Hundreds of millions of Chinese lifted out of poverty is a huge win for human rights. When you're poor, you're not free. Having grown up with dirty streets and beggars, you can't possibly imagine how big a deal it is for me to see my hometown transforming into a modern metropolis, and how my grandparents-in-law (in a different city, in a rural area) finaly ha…

[flagged]

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#324
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A connected world is not a guaranteed sufficient condition for peace. But that does not mean it's not a necessary condition for peace. One could argue that without economic interconnectivity, Europe could have fought WW1 much earlier, or would have had wars much more often.

While I ultimately believe you're correct (along with open borders and travel) I wish there were more rigorous proofs that this were the case. I think about the line in West Wing: "Free trade is essential for human rights...the end of that sentence is 'we hope because nothing else has worked.' ...Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not…

Interconnectedness means that there's additional price everyone pays for (even a small) conflict erupting, and social ties that can disarm smaller conflicts before they get large.

On the other hand, the cost of significant armed conflict is already very, very high.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is not going to invade Germany. Stop spreading nonsense.

You probably shouldn't be downvoted for that. Russia of the present, and for at least the next few decades, is entirely incapable of getting anywhere near staging an invasion of Germany. Russia and it's hyper incompetent military can't even make it a quarter of the way through Ukraine. The best Russia could do is bomb Germany from a distance, which could pose a small threat to valuable infrastructure like fabs.

Unless they manage to do that zerg rush trick again.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#326
post #270
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very important for national stability. A highly-interconnected global economy is arguably better at securing international stability.

That was the main argument for global trade already in 1914. France was Germany's most important commercial partner, and vice-versa. All German rifles had stocks made from French walnut wood! All French locomotives had German-made tubing! This stupid mantra was repeated ad nauseam after 1991, too, with silly op-eds from Friedman and friends about how two countries with McDonald joints in both can't be at war and simi…

McDonald's is now leaving Russia. A local company is taking over operations there and will operate under a different brand name.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/16/1099079032/mcdonalds-leaving-...

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#327
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the main argument for global trade already in 1914. France was Germany's most important commercial partner, and vice-versa. All German rifles had stocks made from French walnut wood! All French locomotives had German-made tubing! This stupid mantra was repeated ad nauseam after 1991, too, with silly op-eds from Friedman and friends about how two countries with McDonald joints in both can't be at war and simi…

more interconnectedness = less % chance of war not absolute 0 % chance of war

> more interconnectedness = less % chance of war

What evidence do you have to make this claim? A simple thought experiment proves the counter. Let's say there is a population on one island, and another population on another island, and these populations have no way of reaching each other or even knowing of each others existence. These not-connected populations are guaranteed not to go to war. However, give one of them the means of reaching the other population, and most assuredly the chance of war has gone up not down.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#328
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A connected world is not a guaranteed sufficient condition for peace. But that does not mean it's not a necessary condition for peace. One could argue that without economic interconnectivity, Europe could have fought WW1 much earlier, or would have had wars much more often.

While I ultimately believe you're correct (along with open borders and travel) I wish there were more rigorous proofs that this were the case. I think about the line in West Wing: "Free trade is essential for human rights...the end of that sentence is 'we hope because nothing else has worked.' ...Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not…

No post body was provided.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#329

Wow. These deals amaze me. Imagine you got given subsidies to live somewhere. I'm not talking about your wages - I'm talking about something extra. Well that is a direct equivalent here. How any governance structure can think this is ok boggles the mind. Is it not clear how we already live in a fascist state - where government + corporations are working together at the people's expense? $5.5 billion.

Serious question - How do you propose governments encourage companies to do what they want? Yes it’s a subsidy but it also seems like the government in this case is essentially buying a service. I guess Germany would hire people to build this factory directly rather than paying a foreign company to do it? Which I imagine would be more expensive if it’s even possible to do. Do you think there are better ways to do thi…

>Serious question - How do you propose governments encourage companies

In some countries capitalism simply works the opposite way.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe having tight relations with Russia, economically especially energy-wise, is greatly beneficial to Europe You're once again excluding any calculations of Russia using the money to run around overthrowing democracies. "It's greatly beneficial if you ignore all the mass murder." The whole reason why they're now cancelling NS2 is because of this. Germany likes cheap energy, sure, but they're less than enthused a…

The world doesn't revolve around "America vs Russia". There are lots of other things going on. And if you are looking for a mass murderer, is there a bigger mass murderer than USA after 20 years of mass murder in the Middle East?

That would be the Middle East itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State

To fight ISIS, it is mostly a joint effort of US + NATO + Allies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Joint_Task_Force_%E2%....

> The United States accounts for the vast majority of airstrikes (75–80%), with the remainder conducted by Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Jordan, Belgium, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, and the United Kingdom.

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