EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices • Hacker News Board

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#511

Post by rektide » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #272

mrtksn wrote: post #123

By the way, that's also how Tesla and all other cars have the same electric plug in EU(not the USB mandate but the car plug standardisation mandate). Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? That question is addressed in the Q&A: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_... In essence, they seem to believe that wired char…

What if Apple finally comes out with wired mag safe for the iPhone? Does they count as wireless? Or would it be illegal in Europe because a wire was still involved even if the connection was magnetic?

I'd guess that they'd be required to implement both. If there's a USB-C charging option, I don't think the EU would prevent an additional magsafe charging. They havent banned wireless charging, for example. This is to insure an essential minimum compatibility (I hope/as I see it).

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#512

Post by tankenmate » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

leadingthenet wrote: post #506

bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

> Let's say the USB consortium releases USB-D with input from Apple, Google, and many other stakeholders [...] If you have to make such an argument, you've already lost. Innovation, particularly disruptive and / or breakthrough innovation, does not happen by committee, no matter how many times over history people tried deluding themselves into thinking that it does. So no, it's not fine.

The directive is designed to make things easier for customers and the environment, not OEMs per se (even though there will be benefits for a number of companies).

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#513

Post by camdat » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

vineyardmike wrote: post #476

stewx wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with the Nintendo Switch is that Nintendo designed their own faulty USB-C charging implementation rather than merely using the reference design. It's not a failure of the spec, it's a failure to adhere to the spec. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16706803

Creating a spec that people don’t want, can’t, or can’t afford to adhere is a failure. I don’t recall ever seeing prior USB devices fail at adherence. The problem is that USB C is a massive spec with a lot of things that aren’t always needed in it (display, pd, high data speeds etc). You can either design your product to implement a lot more things (eg Macs) or skimp out and cause confusion (Switch). By breaking the…

>I don’t recall ever seeing prior USB devices fail at adherence.

Really? You've never seen a power only micro-usb cable (missing 2 bus lines)? I have dozens from all types of devices that use USB as a charging only connector.

This has been a problem with every USB iteration (hard to have the U in USB if you aren't able to handle a wide variety of applications), but I vastly prefer it to the early 00s when you might have 5 different cables to each "specialty" application.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#514

Post by iainmerrick » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

8ytecoder wrote: post #415

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just pick a couple of those USB-C docks on the market and check how many are actually working for you. 1) How is it the spec's fault that random OEMs go to extreme cost cutting measures in order to price dump themselves to the bottom by not following the spec? Of course they won't work properly. But again, for the 100th time, that's not the specs fault that manufacturers actively choose to ignore it. If a driver cho…

Well, if a spec has no validation procedure, compatibility enforcement or certification, what’s even the point? If the switch isn’t actually working as intended they shouldn’t be allowed to call it usb-c. There should be some minimum mandatory requirements. I haven’t studied these spec, but if there exists a min spec to qualify to call yourself USB and the switch case isn’t covered, OR, there’s no minimum spec, it IS…

Hmm, maybe the EU could step in and help regulate this stuff!

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#515

Post by colejohnson66 » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

vineyardmike wrote: post #490

Majestic121 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not stop innovation like MagSafe : https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Transfer-C... I'm not sure what you mean by 'unreasonably non-zero', but I've been sharing chargers between Macbook, XPS 13 and Thinkpad with no concern, + a charger from amazon. Some charger are less powerful than others, so charge is not always as quick, but in real life it does not matter : it's still charging fast enough…

By the way, it’s been talked on HN a lot when USB c comes up, it you shouldn’t use those magnetic cables. The “magnetic disconnect” motion can cause arcing and static electricity that can theoretically damage the thing they’re plugged into. Especially if you leave the exposed pins on the device as you use it unplugged.

How did MagSafe historically handle this? The pogo pins may've been recessed, but they were still exposed to the elements.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#516

Post by bpfrh » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

vineyardmike wrote: post #476

stewx wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with the Nintendo Switch is that Nintendo designed their own faulty USB-C charging implementation rather than merely using the reference design. It's not a failure of the spec, it's a failure to adhere to the spec. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16706803

Creating a spec that people don’t want, can’t, or can’t afford to adhere is a failure. I don’t recall ever seeing prior USB devices fail at adherence. The problem is that USB C is a massive spec with a lot of things that aren’t always needed in it (display, pd, high data speeds etc). You can either design your product to implement a lot more things (eg Macs) or skimp out and cause confusion (Switch). By breaking the…

I think any protocol that wants to implement a wide range of features will be complex.

Afaik if you don't need these you can just implement the parts you need e.g. charging.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#517

Post by tankenmate » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

vineyardmike wrote: post #476

stewx wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with the Nintendo Switch is that Nintendo designed their own faulty USB-C charging implementation rather than merely using the reference design. It's not a failure of the spec, it's a failure to adhere to the spec. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16706803

Creating a spec that people don’t want, can’t, or can’t afford to adhere is a failure. I don’t recall ever seeing prior USB devices fail at adherence. The problem is that USB C is a massive spec with a lot of things that aren’t always needed in it (display, pd, high data speeds etc). You can either design your product to implement a lot more things (eg Macs) or skimp out and cause confusion (Switch). By breaking the…

Sure we are, if they don't conform to the spec then they can't get a CE mark; which then means it can't be sold in the EU and the device misses out on a 350~400M person market.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#518

Post by xenadu02 » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

AndrewDucker wrote: post #180

chenzhekl wrote: post #68

Just curious. If there is a seemingly better connector emerged in the future, could vendors experiment it on new devices on their own? Or do they have to first submit a proposal to the regulator and then deploy it to the device after the proposal has been accepted? I am afraid that the latter could harm innovation.

From the FAQ: "Any technological developments in wired charging can be reflected in a timely adjustment of technical requirements/ specific standards under the Radio Equipment Directive. This would ensure that the technology used is not outdated. At the same time, the implementation of any new standards in further revisions of Radio Equipment Directive would need to be developed in a harmonised manner, respecting the…

In other words: no, you can't make certain kinds of innovations without begging permission first.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#519

Post by colejohnson66 » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:28 PM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #494

matwood wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the law can be changed Basically there will never be a usb-d.

The only way I see there being a need to evolve from USB-C is if we see some major developments in optical (cost/size) The EU seems perfectly willing to adopt new standards if you look at what has been happening in mobile standards (e.g. despite 3G being standardized we got 4G, despite 4G being standardized we got 5G)

3G/4G/5G isn't a good example. Standards evolve, but the issue many people have is that this isn't a standard, but a mandate to use said standard. So people are concerned that the USB Consortium will come up with a USB-D, but new devices won't be able to use it until the EU updates their law.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#520

Post by simion314 » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 5:29 PM UTC

theptip wrote: post #463

kstenerud wrote: post #445

Alright, so before more folks freak out even more at this, there are a number of knee-jerk reactions that could be mitigated by reading up on this a bit before tossing thunderbolts. The main reasoning for this is to cut down on waste from incompatible chargers. This will bring charging more in line with other standardized products such as AC power cords, twisted pair networking, SD cards, M.2 SSDs, and all of those w…

I think your analogy isn’t right. None of those standards are mandatory. Would M.2 have come out when it did if you needed to change the law to permit it to be used over SATA? USB-C is already a standard just like all your other examples. This law forbids using other standards. > New innovations can be brought forth in the same way they are with the other standards mentioned above: developed in a harmonised manner I…

> By definition it is now harder to innovate on charging cables simply because you can’t try something new.

Sure you can, because you have to support the standard but Apple could invent HyperSuperCoolRoundedCornerCharger and put it as an alternative, if it charges hyper super faster then the standard the customers will prefer it and buy the super expensive platinum Apple Genuine DRM protected charger and Apple makes money, customers are happy and if Apple wants to drop the standard USB they can just standardize their cool shit and it will become the new standard.