Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#221

Post by myself248 » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

_trackno5 wrote: post #216

mmastrac wrote: post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

Will it make much of a difference, though? Sure they can fabricate the chips, but a lot of the raw material needed will come from places like China.

Right now, the raw material will come from China because that's where the resources are developed. But once a fab is in place, it makes sense to push more to develop local resources, or at least among more diverse allies.

It doesn't make sense to do that now, because you'd just be shipping local resources to a foreign fab, so that's still a bottleneck. But I think having a local fab is the tipping-point.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#222

Post by sounds » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

_trackno5 wrote: post #216

mmastrac wrote: post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

Will it make much of a difference, though? Sure they can fabricate the chips, but a lot of the raw material needed will come from places like China.

It's a move back down the supply chain. Fine, they haven't completely verticalized the entire supply chain. It's still a strategic move.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#223

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

ISL wrote: post #171

mmastrac wrote: post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

It is very important for national stability. A highly-interconnected global economy is arguably better at securing international stability.

[deleted]

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#224

Post by verisimi » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

Wow. These deals amaze me.

Imagine you got given subsidies to live somewhere. I'm not talking about your wages - I'm talking about something extra. Well that is a direct equivalent here.

How any governance structure can think this is ok boggles the mind.

Is it not clear how we already live in a fascist state - where government + corporations are working together at the people's expense?

$5.5 billion.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#225

Post by cromka » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 4:18 PM UTC

_trackno5 wrote: post #216

mmastrac wrote: post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

Will it make much of a difference, though? Sure they can fabricate the chips, but a lot of the raw material needed will come from places like China.

No post body was provided.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#226

Post by pphysch » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 4:19 PM UTC

vimy wrote: post #175

_fat_santa wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When China attacks Taiwan, the 1st world is fucked. China would be shooting themselves in the foot by invading, because it would equally fuck them. I've read in may places that as soon as China invades, Taiwan will blow up all the fabs and supporting supply lines. So even if China takes control of Taiwan, the semiconductor industry will be a smoldering pile of nothingness. This article[1] does a great job in descri…

I talked to Chinese people about Taiwan. They are very emotional about it (anger and hate). Don’t expect China to act logical.

Please don't make such generalizations.

The average Chinese person is no more responsible for Chinese foreign policy than the average American is for American foreign policy.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#227

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 4:20 PM UTC

eternauta3k wrote: post #111

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but it is the monopoly supplier of the single most important device for fabs. If ASML (and all their knowledge) disappeared off the face of the earth today progress in semiconductors would probably be set back a decade or two. The fact they are a single company in one country that the global industry depends on for progress in semis should be of concern.

What company has the next-best litho machines after ASML?

[deleted]

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#228

Post by bakuninsbart » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 4:20 PM UTC

hh3k0 wrote: post #207

ISL wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very important for national stability. A highly-interconnected global economy is arguably better at securing international stability.

Quoted post unavailable.

There's no contradiction in interconnected economies being both better for global stability and more volatile to global instability. On a populist level, these kinds of questions are always presented as either-or, when in reality it is a pretty delicate balancing act. No, we shouldn't be completely reliant on potentially adversarial states for our basic well-being, but intertwined economies change the cost-benefit-analysis of a lot of adversarial geopolitical actions, and that has led to a lot less war in the world.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#229

Post by l33t2328 » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

qiskit wrote: post #194

aliswe wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, first time on HN ive seen both arguments and counterarguments this ridiculous. but wait, what am i saying, they are claims devoid of proof, references or even arguments.

We invaded germany in 1940s and we've been occupying it ever since. You know like how the soviet union invaded germany in the 1940s. But then they eventually left. We didn't. We are still there. Hopefully germany will become a free nation one day. We talk so much freedom and sovereignty and yet we deprive so many of freedom and sovereignty. > they are claims devoid of proof, references or even arguments. It's basic h…

We aren’t remaining there by force. Germany wants our base there.

Re: Germany paying $5.5B for Intel fab

#230

Post by pasabagi » Tue, Jun 07, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

ISL wrote: post #171

mmastrac wrote: post #2

Investing in local chip fabs is long overdue. These are incredibly important for geopolitical stability and should be distributed world-wide. We've centralized too many fabs in too few places in the search for low cost.

It is very important for national stability. A highly-interconnected global economy is arguably better at securing international stability.

> highly-interconnected

I think the problem is, decision makers need to understand what interconnectedness means, and not just on an abstract level. If you make things, you're intimately familiar with just how many components come from China. You're deeply aware of the fact the machines you use are made in basically every country in the globe. That the materials you consume come from literally every corner of the planet.

People tend to think about globalization as a matter of buying discrete commodities from different places: bananas from panama. They don't understand that essentially all products today are amalgams from different factories scattered across the globe. That leads to crazy weird decisions like Brexit, silly trade wars, etc. People don't realize that cutting a country out of the system is less like not talking to somebody, and more like cutting out a big chunk of one of your organs.