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A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

nytimes.com

111–120 of 165 posts

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#111

If you’re working 20% less than your competitor, you will fall behind. There’s no amount of mental gymnastics one can do to reconcile that fact. And if true, then the market should resolve this.

I worked a 4 day work week at one point. My counterargument to this is that most people aren't productive as they think they are. I feel like most people only actually work half the time they say they do. When I was working 4 days I got more done. This isn't speculation. My hours were tracked and my billable hours went up. My deadlines remained the same but I had less "fuck around" time.

I agree, I also think the original point doesn't take into account burnout and employee retention. Even if the premise that people were doing 80% of the work were true, how does that stack up against how long they're willing to do the job for/how much it costs to replace them. I've seen companies refuse raises, only to go on to spend multiple times what the raise would have cost recruiting and training a new employee

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#112

I wonder what the perspective of other people who run businesses or manage teams are on this subject? I have managed teams at top tech companies in bay area in the past (although switched back to an engineering position recently). Regardless of the company, I have always wondered why everyone around me is working so slowly. Things that a good engineer should be able to do in a day gets done in a month or more. When w…

I often think a particular problem is a day's task. Then a week later I'm still working on it. For sure, it might be me being lazy, but I suspect I've also underestimated the complexity of the task. Other factors play in as well, like if I'm tired my ability to solve tricky problems goes waay down.

Perhaps I should always be not tired, but sometimes life has a habit of getting in the way.

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#114
post #62

I wonder what the perspective of other people who run businesses or manage teams are on this subject? I have managed teams at top tech companies in bay area in the past (although switched back to an engineering position recently). Regardless of the company, I have always wondered why everyone around me is working so slowly. Things that a good engineer should be able to do in a day gets done in a month or more. When w…

Things that a good engineer should be able to do in a day gets done in a month or more. I think the fact that you put "a good engineer" in your post undermines the point you're making. People taking too long to complete simple tasks is a problem, but only where those tasks don't really require any significant ability to complete. Something simple and low risk should be completed quickly by anyone , even a terrible en…

So... not "Things that a good engineer should be able to do in a day" then.

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#115
post #89

I would take hybrid-time over a shorter work week ... I'm honestly unsure why we're not keeping things flexible as each worker is different, their role and preferences are different, etc. I'll take a 4 day week and I could make it work - but why give up the flexibility we've learned over the last couple of years? I don't get it ... people talk a good game when it comes to Capitalism and capital allocation, but when i…

Because for many roles the manager/boss has no idea how to measure results

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#116

I love a three-day weekend as much as the next guy, but I don't understand how people are pushing for shorter workweeks, and even for universal basic income, meanwhile all the Starbucks near me close at 7pm because they're short-staffed. And restaurants and grocery stores and everywhere you look, there's still a labor shortage.

It's a bit disingenuous to conflate working less or part-time with universal basic income.

The first can be done by choice for some people, and doesn't always imply government subsidy. Also why pick 4 days as being closer to UBI, when you could make the same argument about 5 days vs 6.

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#117
post #98

I love a three-day weekend as much as the next guy, but I don't understand how people are pushing for shorter workweeks, and even for universal basic income, meanwhile all the Starbucks near me close at 7pm because they're short-staffed. And restaurants and grocery stores and everywhere you look, there's still a labor shortage.

It's easy, you adapt to not having your coffee after 7pm. (fixed typo of 8pm to 7pm)

yeah, what's wrong with starbucks closing at 7pm...

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#118

It's not really specified in the article but is it still 40 hours per week?

I believe the model is "100% pay for 80% of the hours and 100% of the output". This is usually accompanied by hand waving talk of "improving productivity" but I don't see how it will work realistically. If you were already spending 20% of your working hours scrolling Facebook (or HN) then you will do so on a four day week too (perhaps after an initial honeymoon period).

The alternative approach where employees just spread their 40h of work over 4 days instead of 5 is interesting too, but in a different way. Is the loss of productivity caused by being tired by hour 10 each day offset by having 3 full days to rest? Or even, perhaps those long stretches with nothing to think about but work are MORE productive? A 10h day could be tough on home life (kids/spouse/evening leisure), but if WFH that could just be offset against hours now not spent commuting. Everyone's situation is different. Will be fascinating to see the outcomes of this study. For starters, "define productivity" for a software business!

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#119
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your output scales linearly with your input, and you're working less than your competitor, you will fall behind. If the gradient of your input-to-output curve becomes negative and stays negative, and you're working less than your competitor, then your competitor will fall behind if they're working sufficiently far past the point of negative returns. I'm pretty sure the gradient of all input-to-output curves become…

> I'm pretty sure the gradient of all input-to-output curves becomes negative at some point, and don't see any reason why that point should be exactly 40 hours a week Tbf, it's the 4 day workweek advocates explicitly making the claim that everyone's output curves become negative on the fifth day such that 32hr output ~= 40 hrs output. Legal restrictions on working hours weren't put in place with the assumption that f…

Anybody advocating a specific n-day workweek, whether n is 4, 5, 6, or anything else, is probably going to claim their system has advantages related to productivity.

The argument can be more complicated than just "the company will be more productive." Examples are "society will be overall more productive" (because the free time will be used productively), or "people should be allowed to work more hours if they want" (because even if people are on average less productive working past 40 hours a week, some might be able to cope).

I think it's wrong to claim anyone advocating a 4-day workweek must necessarily believe a company will have higher productivity.

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#120
post #70
post #3

Some time last year I stopped working Mondays. I’m a contractor and I know my boss well, so I just said that I didn’t want to work Mondays any more. The difference is remarkable. You go from spending three quarters of your days at work to just over half. The weekend is actually relaxing. You can do chores, relax, and really unwind before the work week starts again. We use Mondays to work on our side projects. You can…

I see a lot of people go for Monday or Friday when going down to 4 days a week. There's definitely some advantages to that, however as an alternative suggestion I prefer Wednesdays off. I find even in the best jobs, there's a general level of stress that builds up at work over consecutive days. There's a great feeling being a bit stressed on Tuesday and thinking "ah it's ok I've got tomorrow off". It's like that "Fri…

When I did a three day week I worked M, Tue and W and took Thursdays and Fridays off. This gave me a long contiguous block, and meant that I was contactable on Mondays, when various start-the-week activities were scheduled.

The downside of the two day (Th and F) block when I wasn't around was that it was hard to contribute to projects that needed high levels of ad-hoc customer interaction. This actually meant I had to walk away from a couple of projects that were technically appealing, but I was at the point in my career (hence three-day week) where life-work balance was a higher priority, so this wasn't a hard decision.

Part of my decision on the timing was also influenced by discussion with women in the company who came back to a three day week after maternity leave. They pointed out the pros and cons of the various options and made it easier for me to pick the right option from the outset.

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