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Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

bigthink.com

11–20 of 467 posts

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#11
Cannot disagree more. "Making a car is expensive, so let's not do that to explore 1000 miles out. Let's just have 1000 people walk one mile and explore." Simply ridiculous comparison. But sure, let's find a way to build/experiment LHC++ less expensively.

What's concerning to me, however, is the attitude towards curiosity that this article exhibits. They should rename their domain to smallthink.com.

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#12
post #9

Driven by this post, out of curiosity I started looking at the price tag of some mega-projects around the world. Interestingly, the most expensive ones are almost always highway systems. Can someone briefly explain why? I'm my naive view it's mostly asphalt and terrain work.

Highway systems are expensive projects because they require a lot of land, they are very labor intensive, and they require a lot of materials.

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#13
post #8
post #5

> What it could discover is entirely speculative. Thats the point of discovery and arguably a point in favour of doing this

For the cost though, you should probably fund a lot of other science. Climate change mitigation perhaps?

The claim that we need to "invest into science" is outright bullshit. We don't need more investment into climate change science - we already know what to do to mitigate climate change and we have known it for decades (hell there is an article from over a hundred years ago that warns of the dangers of CO2 emissions [2]): ban ICE vehicles and coal power plants, promote public transit, massively restrict other uses of fossil material, get rid of mass animal farming, prevent profiteers from burning down the Amazon rainforest.

The problem is, politicians won't do anything because they are either bought out by the fossil fuel industry that is at the top of the CO2 emitter list [1] or because they are afraid of telling their voters that the only way to stay on track regarding climate change will be a drastic cut in their quality of life.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_contributors_to_greenhouse...

[2]: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/08/13/fact...

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#14
post #7

Yeah, no. Only LHC can generate particle events in a highly controllable environment with enough energy. In physics there are energy thresholds. Below a certain level of energy a certain event just never happens. The low hanging fruit of discovering new physics looks like this. Build a bigger machine to collide particles with even more energy. Observe what comes out. It's a clear direction. Just throw money at the pr…

Does this sort of thing give us tangible benefits? Is it worth the investment? I get things like materials science, supercomputers, AI research, etc. But these colliders are so expensive, all for the sake of discovering a tiny subatomic particle that we have no way of using, AFAIK. But I know nothing, am I wrong here?

Hossenfelder's critique is valid.

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#15
post #9

Driven by this post, out of curiosity I started looking at the price tag of some mega-projects around the world. Interestingly, the most expensive ones are almost always highway systems. Can someone briefly explain why? I'm my naive view it's mostly asphalt and terrain work.

Anything that involves digging holes in the ground is enormously expensive. If you take house building as an example, 25-30% of the cost is the foundations - digging it out then filling them with concrete.

It’s labour, fuel, and material, intensive work.

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#17
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the cost though, you should probably fund a lot of other science. Climate change mitigation perhaps?

The claim that we need to "invest into science" is outright bullshit. We don't need more investment into climate change science - we already know what to do to mitigate climate change and we have known it for decades (hell there is an article from over a hundred years ago that warns of the dangers of CO2 emissions [2]): ban ICE vehicles and coal power plants, promote public transit, massively restrict other uses of f…

Could the money be used to offset quality-of-life to make fossil fuel alternatives less problematic?

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#18
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the cost though, you should probably fund a lot of other science. Climate change mitigation perhaps?

The claim that we need to "invest into science" is outright bullshit. We don't need more investment into climate change science - we already know what to do to mitigate climate change and we have known it for decades (hell there is an article from over a hundred years ago that warns of the dangers of CO2 emissions [2]): ban ICE vehicles and coal power plants, promote public transit, massively restrict other uses of f…

Ban ICE vehicles, coal power plants and get rid of mass animal farming? And then we do what, go back to the caves?

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#19
post #9

Driven by this post, out of curiosity I started looking at the price tag of some mega-projects around the world. Interestingly, the most expensive ones are almost always highway systems. Can someone briefly explain why? I'm my naive view it's mostly asphalt and terrain work.

Not an expert but I would say for the following reasons:

- It’s a lot of asphalt

- construction happens over a wide possibly remote area so all construction materials need transportation

- materials are probably made to order so you are buying effectively a lot of custom components

- engineering/architecture/construction talent isn’t cheap and there’s a lot of competing demand

- hiring is even more difficult as the job isn’t in one place may require a lot of travel, bed and board for all types of workers

- property itself is possible a significant cost to build it through. Even more if you get caught up in legal battles acquiring certain properties

- grift, with large projects in any country at any time there’s always grift. Grift is a constant

Re: Please, don't build another Large Hadron Collider

#20
post #3

Ah... the yearly bigthink article that we should stop funding other experiments and put everything into fusion.

Fusion does remind me of the space program. Surprising new solutions in a wide range of sciences. Easy to produce superconducting ribbons being one of the big successes so far. Said ribbons have lead to significant improvements in electro magnets, improving both field strength and decreasing the magnet sizes. Said magnets are useful for a wide variety of applications (outside of fusion), like improved MRI machines. The ribbons have the potential to help transmit power across the grid with less losses. Significant improvements in predicting and shaping turbulence in plasma has a wide range of applications in producing more efficient engines. Using AI/ML to attack the complexity of the plasma flows that were otherwise computationally intractable.

I'm all for the LHC, but it does seem like the world needs a bit better of an idea of the mysteries that the LHC++ might solve before spending $10-$100B on it. Does seem like science could be pushed further in other areas.

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