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A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

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Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#51
post #3

Some time last year I stopped working Mondays. I’m a contractor and I know my boss well, so I just said that I didn’t want to work Mondays any more. The difference is remarkable. You go from spending three quarters of your days at work to just over half. The weekend is actually relaxing. You can do chores, relax, and really unwind before the work week starts again. We use Mondays to work on our side projects. You can…

Without a doubt the quality of life improvement is massive.

Because of taxes and other expenses, you wind up with more than 4/5th of a paycheck anyway.

I'm very, very happy to have a little less money and way more time.

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally find my weekends a bit exhausting because of my 5 year old, and get to relax at just doing my professional job on Monday when he is back to school. I fear that 3 day weekends every week (since we shouldn’t leave day care workers and teachers out of this) would be the end of me. I’m sure my perspective will change after we are out of the needy kid stage, but even before my son was born, I liked working (I…

It's funny how the most honest groups of people with respect to the purpose of schooling is parents with young kids. Basically what you want is daycare and it just so happens that school fulfills that on Monday. Not judging, I think that's a very common perspective, but amused.

That’s also why the “remote learning” during Covid was such an infuriating joke: the main purpose of schooling (which is daycare) was destroyed, and the learning was marginal at best. This is all while the elementary school children were at no risk from the disease, and while plenty of other “essential workers” were busy working their jobs in person. What a joke.

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally find my weekends a bit exhausting because of my 5 year old, and get to relax at just doing my professional job on Monday when he is back to school. I fear that 3 day weekends every week (since we shouldn’t leave day care workers and teachers out of this) would be the end of me. I’m sure my perspective will change after we are out of the needy kid stage, but even before my son was born, I liked working (I…

It's funny how the most honest groups of people with respect to the purpose of schooling is parents with young kids. Basically what you want is daycare and it just so happens that school fulfills that on Monday. Not judging, I think that's a very common perspective, but amused.

I guess it's amusing to you because you don't have children.

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#54
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really just want escape from life, then maybe more personal time is bad & lots of work time is good. But I'd hope that for many parents, having a day with neither work nor childcare might be an opportunity, might be appreciated, might be a time, finally, where you can rediscover & do some you.

Plenty of people, me included, (males and/or high performance in particular) care more about things than people and will find extremely tiring to talk to people or take care or their kids. Coding doesn't tire me, dealing with kids does. There are people who have the opposite experience and people who feel ok with both. This idea that parents should uniquely and equally be caretaker for their kids is absolutely agains…

It seems to me like you actually don't want to be a parent?

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#55

One thing I would do with a 4 day work week is make more food. As a country we eat out too damn much. Every time I make falafels or pita bread (from scratch - as in soaking garbanzo beans) it's like the best tasting food ever. Just no time.

Cook on Sundays and freeze your meals.

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#56
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really just want escape from life, then maybe more personal time is bad & lots of work time is good. But I'd hope that for many parents, having a day with neither work nor childcare might be an opportunity, might be appreciated, might be a time, finally, where you can rediscover & do some you.

Plenty of people, me included, (males and/or high performance in particular) care more about things than people and will find extremely tiring to talk to people or take care or their kids. Coding doesn't tire me, dealing with kids does. There are people who have the opposite experience and people who feel ok with both. This idea that parents should uniquely and equally be caretaker for their kids is absolutely agains…

Mandated paternity leaves is to provide an equal part contributions towards children for both the mother and the father. Otherwise the mother take most of the hit ( as evidence in countries without it ).

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#57
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> high output individuals usually have intrinsic motivations I agree a lot that intrinsic motivation is key, changes everything, and I think this is a widescale struggle. But while the motivation is intrinsic, the survival rate of intrinsic motivation is deeply governed by the organization. Many many decent-size and/or moderately-mature organizations create resistance, ongoingly tax motivation, sap our will & sense t…

> Very few organizations give their employees real license to do good things, to tackle the work well & encompass broad wins. I sympathise with your argument but the problem is that the Dunning–Kruger effect exists for both the employee and the manager. I've seen 20-something, know-nothing developers relentlessly question every business decision during planning when they clearly have no idea about the larger scope of…

Oh for sure.

I think part of the reciprocal aspect, that businesses are also terrible at, is feedback. Most technical work is unremarked upon. There's code review, but how often do your teams retrospect their own work? How often do they retrospect some system or another teams work? Businesses use their same superficial tip-of-the-iceberg views, more often than not, to assess employees. 10x hacker wins again!

Let's take your scenario:

> I've seen 20-something, know-nothing developers relentlessly question every business decision during planning when they clearly have no idea about the larger scope of the business.

I'd like to see some stake in here. If this persons on our payroll, give them, I dunno, 3-sprints of their own work/2-times-per-year to go try to make shit they talk up real. Maybe insist they spend a sprint or two working with at least one other person on it, to make it a little more real & not independent fuck off time. Have some sort of coder council at the end that can discuss highlights & negatives of the approach. Make sure not-passing is a known & not-irregular result. But let them go at it, find out!

It's weird to me how consensus is nearly the only operating paradigm for organizations. The overwhelming & singular pattern is always the same: somehow a path is picked, and everyone must hem to it. The actual cost of doing duplicate work seems low to me, given how often I think we leave massive potential gains behind. I recall a mention of 1-10-100[1] today, which is nominally about the cost of bad data: 1x if prevented, 10x if corrected, 100x if failure happens. Computer systems/code seem like a hyper-complected version of this. Finding good systems, good patterns, good ways to do things, that make things easy & simple will keep paying off, will be endlessly rewarding. It's so so hard to project, and we often pick "safe" in terms of what we know, but we rarely get to explore the opportunity cost of other paths. And we damage our employee's belief in the company by consistently rejecting bold ideas.

Right now it sounds insane to develop something twice, to let two groups do a thing, and then figure out latter where to head- someone's going to get hurt probably- but I think, if we want to tame the 20-something bucks, some real world challenges like this would be very compelling intrinsic motivators. Would show us very quickly a lot of different kinds of legitimacy: the legitimacy of the organization's concerns, which are unmet by the small-scoped young mind, and the legitimacy of the young mind, which may have some great out of the box stellar wins. Right now we don't try to let people try- we reject people's sense of purpose, we deny them autonomy, we refuse to acknowledge their mastery, for a litany of well-intended & perhaps-functional concerns, but they never construct the understanding & knowledge that would clarify why they are snubbed. If they could live the experience[2] instead, it might alter their intrinsic motivations in the future, might align them differently. Instead, we use hierarchy & roadmaps to coral & drive our talent forward.

It sounds daft & wild, the processes we'd need seem like they'd mostly just be spitballed together at this stage, but breaking the mold: rejecting the concensus practice of consensus based knowledge-working, allowing different people to try different things, having stronger review & higher candor & willingness/ability to try things & reject some, say no: I think there's huge wins for amplifying the highly-important intrinsic motivation, and I think it would unlock a lot of higher-performance work. Leaving mono-culture & allowing diversity into the organization sounds is an idea that sounds both radical to me, and flabbergastingly right-in-front-of-us.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31643434

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(philosophy_of_...

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#58
post #3

Some time last year I stopped working Mondays. I’m a contractor and I know my boss well, so I just said that I didn’t want to work Mondays any more. The difference is remarkable. You go from spending three quarters of your days at work to just over half. The weekend is actually relaxing. You can do chores, relax, and really unwind before the work week starts again. We use Mondays to work on our side projects. You can…

> but that’s mostly because I want to.

Yea, this is key. I either work 4 and sometimes I work 5, the 5th one is free for the company. It's simply because I want to.

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#59
post #51
post #3

Some time last year I stopped working Mondays. I’m a contractor and I know my boss well, so I just said that I didn’t want to work Mondays any more. The difference is remarkable. You go from spending three quarters of your days at work to just over half. The weekend is actually relaxing. You can do chores, relax, and really unwind before the work week starts again. We use Mondays to work on our side projects. You can…

Without a doubt the quality of life improvement is massive. Because of taxes and other expenses, you wind up with more than 4/5th of a paycheck anyway. I'm very, very happy to have a little less money and way more time.

Yea in The Netherlands, I've noticed that you get 2 hours for "free". 100% gross to 80% gross works out to become 100% net to 85% net.

Re: A six-month program in Britain will assess the effects of a shorter workweek

#60
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how the most honest groups of people with respect to the purpose of schooling is parents with young kids. Basically what you want is daycare and it just so happens that school fulfills that on Monday. Not judging, I think that's a very common perspective, but amused.

That’s also why the “remote learning” during Covid was such an infuriating joke: the main purpose of schooling (which is daycare) was destroyed, and the learning was marginal at best. This is all while the elementary school children were at no risk from the disease, and while plenty of other “essential workers” were busy working their jobs in person. What a joke.

> This is all while the elementary school children were at no risk from the disease

First, that's untrue:

https://data.unicef.org/topic/child-survival/covid-19/

Of course it's not even close to the death rate in adults, especially older ones, thankfully, but it isn't "no risk".

Second, the main reason for school closures was that the kids, even if there's very little risk for them, can transmit the disease to family and friends.

Nonetheless, some countries, like France, made the choice to keep the schools open to maintain some level of schooling for most kids. It wasn't without issues and massive criticism from teachers ( who were risking their lives to keep other people's kids occupied), parents ( because classes were closed when a kid got Covid to prevent further transmission, so you could suddenly have to deal with your kid), etc.

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